Possible to log any time?

[bogey2005]

Hello,

A friend of a friend just recently purchased a Cessna Mustang, and was hoping to be able to help me rack up some flight time/provide me with employment. I was wondering if there is any possible way for me to do this, since its single pilots operations, and I do not have a type rating. The plane is privately owned.

Does logging SIC require a type rating? And is there any way to log SIC in this aircraft? What times can you consider "operations that require two pilots?"

I read on previous threads that sometimes insurance requires a second pilot, but that you are not able to log SIC time even in this case. Is it possible to log any time towards total time with or without a type rating while flying right seat?

I didnt have much luck with the far/aim.

Currently have Commercial multi with instrument. Appreciate any information.

 

[Pay2]

There is no such thing as operations that require two pilots UNLESS the op's specs require it. Since the aircraft is operated part 91 there are no op's specs. So without being typed in the aircraft you will not be able to log time. I'd go along for the ride though. you'd have fun. Whatever you do please don't pay for your own type rating in the Mustang just to log some time.

 

[milleR]

There is no such thing as operations that require two pilots UNLESS the op's specs require it.

That is incorrect.

FAR 135.101

Except as provided in §135.105, no person may operate an aircraft carrying passengers under IFR unless there is a second in command in the aircraft.

135.105 is the autopilot exemption.

Under part 91 the only way you could log PIC time is while acting as sole manipulator of the flight controls. In this case you would need to have a type rating since the mustang is a turbojet powered aircraft. Under 91 an SIC isn't required in a single pilot certified plane so you can't log that either. Even if the insurance required two pilots, your friend didn't have a single pilot type rating, or for whatever reason the company needed two pilots, you would need to be typed to be considered "qualified."

If your friend is a current MEI he could put the time in your log book as dual received so it would count towards your total time but that's about it.

 

[rframe]

In theory, couldn't the same standard be used that is used by guys splitting multi-time? Put the PIC under a hood, and bogey can act as the safety pilot.

91.109 (b) (1) and (2) only require a private certificate with category and class ratings, says nothing about 'type'.

They could not use the loop hole where both can log PIC because the safety pilot is not qualified to 'act' as PIC, but it should be legal SIC time because he's acting as a required crew member....

At least I think? Correct me.

 

[TFaudree_ERAU]

Guys, why are you referencing regs regarding logging PIC? That wasn't the question. Logging SIC is perfectly fine, as long as you possess a commercial multi rating (yes, I know, the whole private vs commercial argument...). Read the flight manual, know the limitations, and become familiar with emergency and abnormal procedures. Go do three takeoffs and landings, and at the end of the flight, log SIC time.

 

[milleR]

Guys, why are you referencing regs regarding logging PIC? That wasn't the question. Logging SIC is perfectly fine; read the flight manual, know the limitations, and become familiar with emergency and abnormal procedures. Go do three takeoffs and landings, and at the end of the flight, log SIC time.

How could he log even SIC time without a type rating?

 

[rframe]

Guys, why are you referencing regs regarding logging PIC? That wasn't the question. Logging SIC is perfectly fine, as long as you possess a commercial multi rating (yes, I know, the whole private vs commercial argument...). Read the flight manual, know the limitations, and become familiar with emergency and abnormal procedures. Go do three takeoffs and landings, and at the end of the flight, log SIC time.

How can he log SIC if the aircraft doesn't require two pilots? As I understand the OP, this is a Part 91 operation.

Outside of simulated instrument, which then requires two pilots, this is a single pilot airplane... so there's no SIC position.

I'm no expert so this is a good education for me, so if you can explain with regs if I'm misunderstanding that'd be great.

 

[milleR]

How can he log SIC if the aircraft doesn't require two pilots? As I understand the OP, this is a Part 91 operation.

Outside of simulated instrument, which then requires two pilots, this is a single pilot airplane... so there's no SIC position.

I'm no expert so this is a good education for me, so if you can explain with regs if I'm misunderstanding that'd be great.

I don't know how the type rating for the mustang works, but in the other SP citations you need a specific endorsement for single pilot operations. An SIC is also required for a certain number of hours of IOE (usually 25 I think). But that second pilot needs to be qualified in the aircraft, which means they also need a type rating.

 

[derg]

You can log whatever you'd like.

BUT!

I wouldn't necessarily count that flight time toward any experience requirements for a certificate.

I also wouldn't suggest putting that on a resume when applying to an airline.

Go fly the airplane because it's a unique opportunity and probably lots of fun. Fly it because you're a pilot, not because you might be able to leverage the opportunity.

 

[Pay2]

There is no such thing as operations that require two pilots UNLESS the op's specs require it.

I meant to finish that with "in a single pilot airplane." Auto pilot rule for pax carrying ops was considered, but the aircraft is operated part 91 not 135.

I worked for a 135 outfit that operated a mustang. Neither the plane or our op's specs required two pilots. Two pilots were only necessary if the AP was MELed. We chose to operate with two pilots for passenger comfort reasons. I did the required SIC training of part 135, but never logged an hour as SIC. It was fun, I learned a bit, but that was about it.
It's never something I'd put on a resume. IMO I don't think the time should or could be logged...unless the owner/pilot is an MEI and signs your logbook as milleR suggested.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

Y
Go fly the airplane because it's a unique opportunity and probably lots of fun. Fly it because you're a pilot, not because you might be able to leverage the opportunity.

Yeah- what he said! My 747-400 sim time may technically be useless, but on the other hand, it was a lot of fun and introduced me to some people (that were even offering me jobs!)

 

[TFaudree_ERAU]

How could he log even SIC time without a type rating?

From the TCDS

Minimum Crew for all Flights (See note 5 for cockpit equipment/arrangement restrictions):
One pilot (in the left pilot seat) plus additional equipment as specified in the Kinds of Operations Equipment List (KOEL) contained in the Limitations Section of the FAA Approved Airplane Flight Manual

OR

One pilot and one copilot

NOTE 5. Approval for operation with a minimum crew of one pilot is based upon the cockpit equipment installation and arrangement evaluated during FAA certification testing. No significant changes may be made to the installed cockpit equipment or arrangement (EFIS, autopilot, avionics, etc.), except as permitted by the approved MMEL, without prior approval from the responsible Aircraft Certification Office.

You CAN operate single pilot, but you don't HAVE to.

And the whole SIC type rating was only created to make the ICAO happy. No legal requirement to have one as far as the FAA is concerned.

I will admit, I have no experience operating a single pilot jet, so it's possible I'm way off base here. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Maurus]

Guys, why are you referencing regs regarding logging PIC? That wasn't the question. Logging SIC is perfectly fine, as long as you possess a commercial multi rating (yes, I know, the whole private vs commercial argument...). Read the flight manual, know the limitations, and become familiar with emergency and abnormal procedures. Go do three takeoffs and landings, and at the end of the flight, log SIC time.

See the legal interpretation I posted below. Should clear up any confusion with single pilot jets.

 

[Maurus]

An SIC is also required for a certain number of hours of IOE (usually 25 I think). But that second pilot needs to be qualified in the aircraft, which means they also need a type rating.

That IOE requirement is for insurance and is not required by FAA regulations.

 

[rframe]

I totally get what you guys are saying about just flying for the sake of flying and that's legit, but to bogey's original question: the owner of the mustang wants to help out the new pilot, assuming they did do something like safety pilot (SIC) time... why would that be any less valid as a boost to total time than any other low-time guys who get together to split multi-engine time, given the same experience is being gained, is it just because the multi-shares get to hide it under the PIC column?

 

[rframe]

That IOE requirement is for insurance and is not required by FAA regulations.

61.63 says that if the type rating ride was accomplished in a simulator, rather than the real airplane, the 25 hours is required (I think). If the type ride is taken in the real airplane then the 25 hours supervision isn't required.

 

[Maurus]

61.63 says that if the type rating ride was accomplished in a simulator, rather than the real airplane, the 25 hours is required (I think). If the type ride is taken in the real airplane then the 25 hours supervision isn't required.

No one mentioned the checkride being done in the Sim, good catch though. Also that reg is in 61.64.

Ok now to really clear up any future mess.

If the PIC has the single pilot rating (510S in the OPs case)...

In your example, the Cessna 525 CitationJet is properly equipped for a single pilot operation as required by the type certificate data sheet, the PIC is qualified for a single-pilot operation, and the regulations do not require more than one pilot for the operation. Although there is nothing in the regulations that would prevent the assignment of a second pilot to that operation, that second pilot would not be a required flight crewmember because only one pilot is required for the operation. Accordingly, under section 61.51(f), that second pilot may not log flight time as SIC for any part of the operation. However, that second pilot may be able to log PIC time for the portion of the operation during which the second pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls provided that pilot meets the requirements of section
61.51(e).

This is what the Chief counsel said in this interpretation for a different model of Citation.

 

[milleR]

This may not apply to the Mustang since it's a single pilot aircraft, but the conversation got me thinking about the freight operators back in the day throwing any warm body into the right seat of lear and I learned something interesting.

§ 61.55 Second-in-command qualifications.
(a) A person may serve as a second-in-command of an aircraft type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crewmember or in operations requiring a second-in-command pilot flight crewmember only if that person holds:

(1) At least a current private pilot certificate with the appropriate category and class rating; and

(2) An instrument rating or privilege that applies to the aircraft being flown if the flight is under IFR; and

(3) The appropriate pilot type rating for the aircraft unless the flight will be conducted as domestic flight operations within United States airspace.

(d) A person may receive a second-in-command pilot type rating for an aircraft after satisfactorily completing the second-in-command familiarization training requirements under paragraph (b) of this section in that type of aircraft provided the training was completed within the 12 calendar months before the month of application for the SIC pilot type rating. The person must comply with the following application and pilot certification procedures:

(1) The person who provided the training must sign the applicant's logbook or training record after each lesson in accordance with §61.51(h)(2) of this part. In lieu of the trainer, it is permissible for a qualified management official within the organization to sign the applicant's training records or logbook and make the required endorsement. The qualified management official must hold the position of Chief Pilot, Director of Training, Director of Operations, or another comparable management position within the organization that provided the training and must be in a position to verify the applicant's training records and that the training was given.

(2) The trainer or qualified management official must make an endorsement in the applicant's logbook that states “[Applicant's Name and Pilot Certificate Number] has demonstrated the skill and knowledge required for the safe operation of the [Type of Aircraft], relevant to the duties and responsibilities of a second in command.”

So to answer my own question:

How could he log even SIC time without a type rating?

Apparently all you need is a logbook endorsement to act as SIC in a two pilot aircraft.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Apparently all you need is a logbook endorsement to act as SIC in a two pilot aircraft.

We have a winner.

You can then take said endorsement down to your local FSDO and get an SIC type rating plastered onto your certificate too, but you don't have to unless you're going to a place that requires you to have one.

 

[Hubbs]

As mentioned above, log whatever you like just be careful in what time you claim to have for a job application.

That said, it is a great opportunity to get some great experience that one day might help you get a job.