Lost Comms

boondr said:
I would classify a true NORDO (IE radios don't work, not just lost in frequency land) as an emergency every single time. Communication is critical in an IFR environment.
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So is predictability. Maybe more so.

Let's KISS as an example. You're cleared as filed and lose comm en route. What's the bigger emergency?

1. Follow your clearance, observing the reg's altitude restrictions;
2. Treat it as an "emergency" and use your emergency authority to do whatever you want but that no one else expects?
 
Alright, I looked it up. From the 7110.65, 10-4-4:

NOTE-
1. When an IFR aircraft experiences two-way radio communications failure, air traffic control is based on anticipated pilot actions. Pilot procedures and recom-mended practices are set forth in the AIM, CFRs, and pertinent military regulations.
2. Should the pilot of an aircraft equipped with a coded radar beacon transponder experience a loss of two-way radio capability, the pilot can be expected to adjust the transponder to reply on Mode 3/A Code 7600.
a. In the event of lost communications with an aircraft under your control jurisdiction use all appropriate means available to reestablish communications with the aircraft. These may include, but not be limited to, emergency frequencies, NAVAIDs that are equipped with voice capability, FSS, Aeronauti- cal Radio Incorporated (ARINC), etc.
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From the AIM, 6-4-1:

IFR conditions. If the failure occurs in IFR
conditions, or if subparagraph 2 above cannot be
complied with, each pilot shall continue the flight
according to the following:
(a) Route.
(1) By the route assigned in the last ATC
clearance received;
(2) If being radar vectored, by the direct
route from the point of radio failure to the fix, route,
or airway specified in the vector clearance;
(3) In the absence of an assigned route, by
the route that ATC has advised may be expected in a
further clearance; or
(4) In the absence of an assigned route or a
route that ATC has advised may be expected in a
further clearance by the route filed in the flight plan
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This section from the AIM is immediately followed by the section on altitude quoted above in other posts.
 
Here is another thought. An examiner questioned this on a checkride...

Say you lose comms during the arrival and you proceed to the initial approach fix. If you get there early, are you really going to hold? If you do, you delay other aircraft from landing. Even though you should, are you really going to do it? ATC probably wants you to land asap.
 
dahhcon said:
Here is another thought. An examiner questioned this on a checkride...

Say you lose comms during the arrival and you proceed to the initial approach fix. If you get there early, are you really going to hold? If you do, you delay other aircraft from landing. Even though you should, are you really going to do it? ATC probably wants you to land asap.
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What if you can't hold at the IAF?
 
In that situation, expedition of traffic is a low priority. It may be an inconvenience to the planes that have to wait, but safety is the first priority, and waiting won't kill them. You were given an EFC for a reason, most likely due to traffic. Controllers are lazy and want to issue the minimal amount of clearances possible. If it were safe for you to just land, you would have been given an approach clearance, not a clearance to the IAF, because that would be an extra step for the controller, and could lead to confusion.

N123AB cross ABCDE at 1700, cleared ILS approach runway 15 -- go ahead and land

N123AB cleared to ABCDE descend and maintain 1700, expect ILS approach runway 15 at 1515 zulu --you arrive at 1510 zulu, hold for 5 minutes and land.

It is entirely possible that it is safe to just land, BUT it is equally possible that at 1510 there will be a departure on runway 15 and you could land on top of them
 
greg1016 said:
It is entirely possible that it is safe to just land, BUT it is equally possible that at 1510 there will be a departure on runway 15 and you could land on top of them
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That is a good point to bring up. That is what I have been thinking since I heard about this type of situation. Also, there could be an aircraft still on approach too.
 
dahhcon said:
Here is another thought. An examiner questioned this on a checkride...

Say you lose comms during the arrival and you proceed to the initial approach fix. If you get there early, are you really going to hold? If you do, you delay other aircraft from landing. Even though you should, are you really going to do it? ATC probably wants you to land asap.
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Why do you say "you should" hold? Not only ATC, but the Regs expect you to land.

I'd say that, if not from the very beginning of your flight, by the time you are on an arrival, you have been cleared to the destination airport, not to some point in space.

If I was given a hold and a EFC time, then, yes, the regs and probably ATC both require that you hold until your EFC time. But if you're cleared to the airport. That's where you go.

If you want to land at the airport, go to the ramp, and taxi around in circles until your planned ETA, I guess that's fine, but why?

Just noticed greg's post. Absolutely agree.
 
Another thought to throw out there - lost comms in a transport category aircraft probably has different ramifications than in a single engine piston plane. It normally takes a LOT of things to go wrong to end up with a complete comm failure in a larger plane, and you might expect that there are some higher priority things happening than just lost comm.

(Not commenting on any previous posts, just putting some more thoughts on the table...)
 
SteveC said:
Another thought to throw out there - lost comms in a transport category aircraft probably has different ramifications than in a single engine piston plane. It normally takes a LOT of things to go wrong to end up with a complete comm failure in a larger plane, and you might expect that there are some higher priority things happening than just lost comm.

(Not commenting on any previous posts, just putting some more thoughts on the table...)
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Absolutely true. It's probably also true that a comm failure in a light airplane is going to be related to other things. I had a lost comm situation VFR and the first thing I thought was that it might have been the first signs of an electrical failure. Meybe the next thing would be the smell of burnt insulation followed by... I wasn't going to wait and see. I entered a Class D pattern unannounced and landed with no light gun signals. Had a very polite conversation with the FSDO the next day.

On the other hand, consider the results if the comm failure is on the ATC end - that very last thing you'd want to see is a bunch of aircraft all exercising emergency authority and doing the unexpected while in the clouds.

The point I take from it is that lost comm might or might not be an emergency. Like a lot of unusual events, there's generally enough time to troubleshoot and make a reasoned decision. Sometimes it will be to follow the rules; other times it will be to treat it as an emergency and take the necessary steps to deal with it.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
Absolutely true. It's probably also true that a comm failure in a light airplane is going to be related to other things. I had a lost comm situation VFR and the first thing I thought was that it might have been the first signs of an electrical failure. Meybe the next thing would be the smell of burnt insulation followed by... I wasn't going to wait and see. I entered a Class D pattern unannounced and landed with no light gun signals. Had a very polite conversation with the FSDO the next day.

On the other hand, consider the results if the comm failure is on the ATC end - that very last thing you'd want to see is a bunch of aircraft all exercising emergency authority and doing the unexpected while in the clouds.

The point I take from it is that lost comm might or might not be an emergency. Like a lot of unusual events, there's generally enough time to troubleshoot and make a reasoned decision. Sometimes it will be to follow the rules; other times it will be to treat it as an emergency and take the necessary steps to deal with it.
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Agree. And also wanted to second the motion that "simple NORDO" is a rarity, especially with multiple comm radios, etc. Generally, NORDO is a fallout from partial or complete electrical failure. And these will be further complicated by inability to navigate (with panel mounted systems), as well as no ability to squawk or for ATC to otherwise know where you are and track you.

In those situations while in IMC, the NORDO becomes the least of your problems. Just food for thought.

I agree with the sentiment posted.
 
If you go NORDO, as ATC you're filed flight plan route is protected. You are expected to continue the flight plan route as filed and the last altitude clearance (the expect XXX in 10 minutes) AND any subsequent altitude requirements for MVA, MEA, MOCAs etc on your route. You absolutely should continue on until the F16s that suddenly appear ask you to do something else. CASE IN POINT... A GA pilot lost comms on an IFR FP, radar handoff had already been accomplished and suddenly the pilot reversed course and began squawking 7500 with a passenger jet on his tail. The passenger jet had to be given an immediate 90 degree turn (not joking, head on, 10 miles, same alt) because we had no idea what was going on. Via ident the pilot confirmed intentially squawking 7500. As you can imagine this caused a lot of undue stress and coordination with multiple towers, approach controls and other center sectors. In the end the pilot only was NORDO and squawk'd the wrong code. Had the pilot remained NORDO and continued on his flight plan, his route would have remained sterile and other traffic would have been rerouted. Although he still would have some F16s surprise him. So I say all that to say this... fly your damn flight plan and comply with your clearance limits while still maintaining minimum safe altitudes... you're route is being protected!!
 
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