Air France pilots and high altitude stall training

Autothrust Blue said:
What bugs me, and what scares me, is that I can actually see this one happening to me considering the normal way that the interface works (e.g. 99.9999% of the time in that airplane). "Hey! We're a-stallin', thrust TOGA and pull!" -> Bye bye. Given the available information presented, how it's presented and how things normally work...

A killer I forgot is that there's no automatic stabilizer trim in alternate law, too. And the THS went to full airplane nose up and stayed there for the duration of the flight. You get one little line on the primary flight display 'USE MAN PITCH TRIM' to remind you to move the wheel, which you normally only touch on the ground before takeoff.
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I landed with full nose down trim today (not normal), having a tactile cue for this would be nice...
 
Ive been trained on recovery from an imminent stall but never from a full on stall in the jet at the airlines.
 
Trip7 said:
Ive been trained on recovery from an imminent stall but never from a full on stall in the jet at the airlines.
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Really? We changed our program about two years ago and we are NEVER ahead of the curve. I just figured everybody was doing that now. It's pretty amazing how far down the nose goes when the pusher kicks in.
 
BobDDuck said:
I don't know the Airbus system that well (or at all really) but I do know that in other glass cockpit setups, cascading status messages are a problem. When you have serious system failures there can be multiple pages of advisory messages that are often prioritized only by warning vs. caution vs. status. I've seen situations in the sim where an extremely important message gets buried the second page of the EICAS/ECAM because the designers felt that the low oil pressure warning message from the engine that was shut down 15 minutes ago is more important. I hope that as glass systems mature and user interface designs continue to improve they figure out better message priority systems than red/yellow/white(blue) and most recent on the top.
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As advertised, ECAM supposedly puts the most severe/most imminent threat first (e.g. autopilot disconnection is always at the top). Reversion to alternate law is a big deal, but might be buried if there's something more "severe" being displayed at the time.

drunkenbeagle said:
I landed with full nose down trim today (not normal), having a tactile cue for this would be nice...
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320?
 
Here's the translation, it starts at 1hr57 within the flight. C for captain, PF, PNF.
C: Well, all you have to do is wake him up from er flight rest
PF: Ok, the little turbulence you've just seen, we should keep getting it cuz we're in the layer and unfortunately we can't climb for now, the temperature doesnt decrease like it should, so we get REC MAX a bit too low to go and get the FL370. The intertropical converence, that's it, we're in it between SALPU and TASIL. Minus 42, we won't use the anti ice, and that's a bonus. See how we are at the limit of the layer ?
PNF: You might want to head a little bit to the left, we agree that I am in manual yeah ?
PNF: What I call in manual ah no we're in calibrated
PF: You want me to set ignition start ?
<AP DISC>
PF: I have controls
PNF: Ignition start
<Stall! Stall!>
PNF: What's that ??
<Stall, stall>
PF: we don't have a good... we don't have a good indication...
PNF: We have lost the the the speeds so... Engine thrust ATHR engine lever thrust
PF: Of speed
PNF: Alternate law
PF: Wait we're loosing...
PF: Wing anti-ice
PF: Watch the speed, careful with the speed
PNF: Ok, I'm descending
PF: You stabilize
PNF: Yeah
PF: You're descending again
PF: According to the three you are climbing so you are descending
PNF: Ok
PF: You at descending
PNF: Here we go we're descending
PF: I'll set you on ATT
PNF: We are in, yeah, we are in climb
PF: Where is he er ?
<stall, stall>
PNF: TOGA
PF: Touch as little as you can the controls in lateral ok ?
PNF: I'm in TOGA yeah
PF: (...) He's coming or what ?
PNF: But we have the engines, what's going on ?
PF: I've lost control of the airplane there, I've completely lost control of the airplane
PNF: Stick to the left
<Cockpit door opens>
C: Hey what are you guys doing ?
PNF: What's going on ? I don't know what's going on !
<end of stall alarm>
C: Ok here, take that
<stall, stall>
PF: I have a problem, I've got no VSI
C: Ok
PF: I've lost all indications
C: I feel that we are climbing like crazy no ? What do you guys think ?
PF: No, above all don't take them out ! <stall, stall> (nose up at 41 deg)
PF: What do you think about that ? What do you think about that ? What should we do ?
PNF: There I don't know, it's going down
C: Ok, it seems we're back wings level, no it doesn't (want)
PF: Wings level, standy horizon horizon
PNF: Horizon
PNF: Speed ?
<stall, stall>
PF: You're going down, going down, going down
PNF: I'm going down now ?
PF: Down
C: No you're climbing
PF: I'm climbing okay so let's descend
<stall, stall>
PF: Okay we'r in TOGA
<stall, stall>
PF: What do we have altitude ?
C: (...) It can't be
PF: Altitude ?
PNF: How's that, altitude ?
PF: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm going down there no ?
C: Hey! You're in... Put the wings level !
PNF: Put the wings level !
PF: That's what I'm trying to do !
PF: I'm all the way to... with left rudder
PNF: The rudder
PF: What the... How is it that we're still descending like crazy ?
PNF: See what you can do with your controls up there the primary etc
PF: Level 100 (10'000ft)
PF: 9000ft
C: Easy with the rudder there
PNF: Climb, climb, climb !!!!!
PF: But I'm all the way nose up since way back !!
C: No, no don't climb !
PNF: Well go down then
PF: Here you have controls, we're still in TOGA yeah ?
<stall, stall>
C: Hey watch it you're nose up
PNF: I'm nose up ?
PF: Well you'd better be, we're at 4000ft
C: Go, pull
PF: Come on up, up, up
C: 10 degres nose up
<end of recording>

According to the FDR, they were 41 deg nose up most of the descent, and they went from wings level to 40 degres. Poor guys, may they RIP.
 
Pépé le Pilot said:
Here's the translation, it starts at 1hr57 within the flight. C for captain, PF, PNF.
C: Well, all you have to do is wake him up from er flight rest
PF: Ok, the little turbulence you've just seen, we should keep getting it cuz we're in the layer and unfortunately we can't climb for now, the temperature doesnt decrease like it should, so we get REC MAX a bit too low to go and get the FL370. The intertropical converence, that's it, we're in it between SALPU and TASIL. Minus 42, we won't use the anti ice, and that's a bonus. See how we are at the limit of the layer ?
PNF: You might want to head a little bit to the left, we agree that I am in manual yeah ?
PNF: What I call in manual ah no we're in calibrated
PF: You want me to set ignition start ?
<AP DISC>
PF: I have controls
PNF: Ignition start
<Stall! Stall!>
PNF: What's that ??
<Stall, stall>
PF: we don't have a good... we don't have a good indication...
PNF: We have lost the the the speeds so... Engine thrust ATHR engine lever thrust
PF: Of speed
PNF: Alternate law
PF: Wait we're loosing...
PF: Wing anti-ice
PF: Watch the speed, careful with the speed
PNF: Ok, I'm descending
PF: You stabilize
PNF: Yeah
PF: You're descending again
PF: According to the three you are climbing so you are descending
PNF: Ok
PF: You at descending
PNF: Here we go we're descending
PF: I'll set you on ATT
PNF: We are in, yeah, we are in climb
PF: Where is he er ?
<stall, stall>
PNF: TOGA
PF: Touch as little as you can the controls in lateral ok ?
PNF: I'm in TOGA yeah
PF: (...) He's coming or what ?
PNF: But we have the engines, what's going on ?
PF: I've lost control of the airplane there, I've completely lost control of the airplane
PNF: Stick to the left
<Cockpit door opens>
C: Hey what are you guys doing ?
PNF: What's going on ? I don't know what's going on !
<end of stall alarm>
C: Ok here, take that
<stall, stall>
PF: I have a problem, I've got no VSI
C: Ok
PF: I've lost all indications
C: I feel that we are climbing like crazy no ? What do you guys think ?
PF: No, above all don't take them out ! <stall, stall> (nose up at 41 deg)
PF: What do you think about that ? What do you think about that ? What should we do ?
PNF: There I don't know, it's going down
C: Ok, it seems we're back wings level, no it doesn't (want)
PF: Wings level, standy horizon horizon
PNF: Horizon
PNF: Speed ?
<stall, stall>
PF: You're going down, going down, going down
PNF: I'm going down now ?
PF: Down
C: No you're climbing
PF: I'm climbing okay so let's descend
<stall, stall>
PF: Okay we'r in TOGA
<stall, stall>
PF: What do we have altitude ?
C: (...) It can't be
PF: Altitude ?
PNF: How's that, altitude ?
PF: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm going down there no ?
C: Hey! You're in... Put the wings level !
PNF: Put the wings level !
PF: That's what I'm trying to do !
PF: I'm all the way to... with left rudder
PNF: The rudder
PF: What the... How is it that we're still descending like crazy ?
PNF: See what you can do with your controls up there the primary etc
PF: Level 100 (10'000ft)
PF: 9000ft
C: Easy with the rudder there
PNF: Climb, climb, climb !!!!!
PF: But I'm all the way nose up since way back !!
C: No, no don't climb !
PNF: Well go down then
PF: Here you have controls, we're still in TOGA yeah ?
<stall, stall>
C: Hey watch it you're nose up
PNF: I'm nose up ?
PF: Well you'd better be, we're at 4000ft
C: Go, pull
PF: Come on up, up, up
C: 10 degres nose up
<end of recording>

According to the FDR, they were 41 deg nose up most of the descent, and they went from wings level to 40 degres. Poor guys, may they RIP.
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Wow, thanks for translating. I find it interesting that the Captain thought they were climbing for the duration of the descent.
 
Man it sounds like they lost more indications then just the airspeed if they couldn't figure out if they were climbing our descending
 
Thanks for translating that. As I have said all along, this was not as simple as a basic stall recovery. Sad, but could happen to any one of us.
 
seagull said:
Thanks for translating that. As I have said all along, this was not as simple as a basic stall recovery. Sad, but could happen to any one of us.
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I've seen more than once in the sim where contradictory indications on the panel will get someone's mind thinking one direction and it becomes VERY difficult to switch gears and go the other way. Done it myself as a matter of fact.
 
The BEA just points out a lack of CRM, but in this situation I think that everyone tried his best. Of course now everyone has found a scapegoat, it's going to be so easy to blame the crew when there where obvious problems with this 330 configuration (Thales pitot, ISIS)...
I'm curious to know if other airlines have implemented the high altitude stall recovery training ?
 
Pépé le Pilot said:
I'm curious to know if other airlines have implemented the high altitude stall recovery training ?
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Like I noted earlier, we do, and go beyond the shaker and into a full stall. It was good to see, but who knows how accurate the sim is for that type of work.
 
dasleben said:
Like I noted earlier, we do, and go beyond the shaker and into a full stall. It was good to see, but who knows how accurate the sim is for that type of work.
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You do in the 767, which remains a "conventional" airplane, in the way that you the pilot has final authority. Now AF 330's have the ISIS (Integrated Standby Indicator System, an all electronic system) which feeds off the IRS2 (if my memory serves me right). With the IRS off line, no more ISIS... :/
 
Pépé le Pilot said:
You do in the 767, which remains a "conventional" airplane, in the way that you the pilot has final authority. Now AF 330's have the ISIS (Integrated Standby Indicator System, an all electronic system) which feeds off the IRS2 (if my memory serves me right). With the IRS off line, no more ISIS... :/
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We have an ISIS setup in the CRJ and if I recall it has it's own gyro and takes pressure data from a dedicated pitot system. It's damn hard to fly with, but in a pinch it works.
 
I don't necessarily agree with everything my Dir. of Ops. does, but I'll be damned if the most valuable thing he's ever done for me was having me fly around in the Hawker for 5 minutes in and out of stick shaker, followed by walking me through a full stall series.

Those of you going through training at FSI or SimuFlite aren't getting the training you deserve, and it's a crying shame.
 
I'm looking up in my 330/340 FCTM but it doesn't go too deep in details regarding the ISIS, I've emailed an Air France 330 captain buddy of mine so he can fill me in on the ISIS installed in the AF 330's...
 
If it's the Thales one (like most other things on that plane) it has a solid state internal setup and is completely self contained minus a power source (although it may have a battery) and pitot system.
 
My question is, did they lose the attitude indicator also? It seems they loss the airspeed indicator and the VSI along with numerous warning/caution warnings. The reason why I'm asking is at OH they teach us to set a power setting and hold a specific attitude when you lose your airspeed and VSI. Easier said then done because they were flying through a thunderstorm and a lot was going on.
 
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