Shutdown of FAA possible in House, Senate clash

[jtrain609]

WRONG. a LOT of small airports would close shop would have to close shop as their survival depends greatly on the community. Quite a few of those might have a small FedEx run that may be the life blood for small businesses in that town. I know airports like this exist, and there are a lot of them, as I have flown into many during building my time as an aerial survey pilot. That one FedEx run isn't going to save them if user fees get implemented. The airport would still close...these user fees are going to have a much farther effect on the country than just aviation.

That aside, there are so many great places accessible by small aircraft, why would we want to risk losing those? Aviation has always been associated with freedom, the possibility to go where only the birds went before. We've lost sight of that now, remember your roots man, and how you got started in this! Why would we want to associate fees with all this? Besides, you complain about TA's/ RA's now... imagine how fun it will be when rebellious GA pilots start taking to the skies with transponders off, not that you need to have one in some places..

You don't think FedEx would happily pay those fee's and just add on the cost to the shipping fee?

Really?

RRREEEEAAALLLLYYYYY???

You think they'd just close out entire markets because the cost went up a dollar or two?

 

[Barty]

Besides, you complain about TA's/ RA's now... imagine how fun it will be when rebellious GA pilots start taking to the skies with transponders off, not that you need to have one in some places..

Agreed. As a controller, I'd much rather be talking to some of these weekend warriors (as bad as their radio skills are) and be able to tell them about the traffic around them than have them decide to do maneuvers at 10,500' right at the fix where Memphis arrivals have to cross at 10,000 without talking to anyone.

On the other side of the coin, I've seen plenty of "professional" 121 pilots turn routine situations into complete clusters because they choose to act on a clearance when they feel like getting around to it.

 

[dasleben]

If it doesn't have a pair of turbine engines, TCAS and GPWS, I'm not interested anymore.

That's a shame. The best flying I've ever done was without all that. In fact, I still miss it dearly; I'm bored to tears flying big jets!

 

[jtrain609]

That's a shame. The best flying I've ever done was without all that. In fact, I still miss it dearly; I'm bored to tears flying big jets!

Same, but I'm not bored with the jet these days, not since I stopped trying to compare it to other types of operations that it's not.

 

[Cav]

Same, but I'm not bored with the jet these days, not since I stopped trying to compare it to other types of operations that it's not.

Same here. I have no desire to fly small planes. I have no desire to fly on my days off. I guess that could change one day. Gliding might be cool but flying a 182 or a Bonanza around? No thanks.

I'm not anti GA. Quite the opposite.

 

[Cav]

Re: Partial FAA Shutdown at midnight, today (7/22/2011)

The fuel tax seems to accomplish this properly already. If you fly more you pay more. Which aircraft use ATC services more GA or Airlines? Airlines do, and airlines pay more because their aircraft use more fuel. Seems fair to me. The fuel tax is transparent, it doesn't require additional bureaucratic staff to keep track of all the billing. Think of how ridiculous it will be. Fly an ILS receive a bill for it 6 months later?? Who gets the bill? The registered owner? If its a flight school that won't work very well. What happens if you don't pay? Since when is anything the FAA does efficient or cost effective? User fees is a can of worms.

A lot of good points here. Obviously the airlines should pay the largest share since we place the highest stress on the system. I only want to ensure that everyone is paying their portion of the system. How those revenues are collected isn't the important part.

 

[flyingbum]

Re: Partial FAA Shutdown at midnight, today (7/22/2011)

That is the exact attitude that put this country in it's current and accelerating downward spiral.

 

[dasleben]

Same, but I'm not bored with the jet these days, not since I stopped trying to compare it to other types of operations that it's not.

I guess it helps that you still get lots of hands-on time with your airplane.

 

[mshunter]

Sure they are. I'm just saying that users of the system should pay for the services they use rather than having the airlines and our passengers pick up pretty much the entire bill all in the name of keeping GA accessible. That's not right.

Not enough, and since that's the case, you should be paying MORE.

You two are ridiculous! Think about it. You pay taxes on the fuel you burn, which is directly related to how much of the system you use. Use it a little in you little airplane, pay a little tax. Use it a bunch in your "cover a bunch of airspace, and talk to someone the whole way" airplane, and you pay more taxes. Real simple to understand.


If user fees are a thing of the future, than fine, so be it. But NO ONE should be exempt, including the airlines. And the fee's should be based off of one of two things. Either the gross weight of the aircraft, or how many passengers is can carry, since you want it to be so fair.


Edit to add: I can't suffer through this thread anymore, since it seems that somes viewpoints are so construed because they had someone in a "little airplane" piss them off. IMO, I think both sides need to get over yourselves. You are starting to sound like our government!

 

[jtrain609]

You two are ridiculous! Think about it. You pay taxes on the fuel you burn, which is directly related to how much of the system you use. Use it a little in you little airplane, pay a little tax. Use it a bunch in your "cover a bunch of airspace, and talk to someone the whole way" airplane, and you pay more taxes. Real simple to understand.


If user fees are a thing of the future, than fine, so be it. But NO ONE should be exempt, including the airlines. And the fee's should be based off of one of two things. Either the gross weight of the aircraft, or how many passengers is can carry, since you want it to be so fair.


Edit to add: I can't suffer through this thread anymore, since it seems that somes viewpoints are so construed because they had someone in a "little airplane" piss them off. IMO, I think both sides need to get over yourselves. You are starting to sound like our government!

The airlines won't be exempt in any user fee scenario, and they will end up paying the majority of the costs for the airspace system.

And I'm not so concerned about little airplanes as I am little pilots who think flying 20 hours a year means they're current.

 

[mshunter]

The airlines won't be exempt in any user fee scenario, and they will end up paying the majority of the costs for the airspace system.

And so it should be, if it happens. If you use 75% of the systems resources, you should pay 75% of the costs to keep it usable. Seems logical, right?

 

[jtrain609]

And so it should be, if it happens. If you use 75% of the systems resources, you should pay 75% of the costs to keep it usable. Seems logical, right?

Correct.

 

[fholbert]

Same here. I have no desire to fly small planes. I have no desire to fly on my days off. I guess that could change one day. Gliding might be cool but flying a 182 or a Bonanza around? No thanks.

I'm not anti GA. Quite the opposite.

I have a friend who's a 747 Captain for a major foreign carrier. He owns a Thorp and is looking to purchase another GA aircraft in the states, pull the wings off, and ship it home. Anyway, after a 15 hour non-stop flight to LAX he'll want to go flying the next day in my Super Viking. He's a guy who truly loves aviation. I'll plan a trip where we can buy lunch and he's always amazed there are restaurants at GA airports, when we walked into the BBQ place at Havasu I heard a sigh behind me. I've always assumed the reason we don't see US airline pilots at the GA airports is because of the difference in pay. Foreign 1st officers make more than many captains in the states.

 

[ppragman]

The airlines won't be exempt in any user fee scenario, and they will end up paying the majority of the costs for the airspace system.

And I'm not so concerned about little airplanes as I am little pilots who think flying 20 hours a year means they're current.

Legally speaking, they are current. But those guys aren't the major problem. If you think 20hr a year guys in Ercoupes are the biggest problem we have then you're deluding yourself. There are much more substantial, even systemic problems in airmanship, training, airworthiness, and common sense. User fees aren't the panacea to the problems of bad airmanship. Some sort of system that encourages aviation CEUs or even mandates them, a professional organization which regulates the amount of pilots that enter, and widespread changes to the culture of aviation are the only way to make the skies safer. Canada's got user fees, you think that there aren't guys in Canada that are 1000 years old flying ratted out airplanes around? No. Those guys will keep flying, just they'll fly less. "Well, if I can't afford 20 hrs a year, I'll try for ten, and I'll spend as much of that as possible away from places where I'd have to pay." Then, when they do have to go to a big place, they'll be just as bad.

There are things that worry me more than the ancient old doctors flying bonanzas into class B airports. The fact that you can fly a large, transport category jet with almost no experience is one of the biggest problems out there. That and a culture that abhors real airmanship in favor of "400' Autopilot on" from low time on is a creeping bubble that's going to put a plethora of inexperienced people into the left seat eventually.

 

[fholbert]

Re: Partial FAA Shutdown at midnight, today (7/22/2011)

17 days off, per month, for the last 2 months, without touching a day of vacation. Suck it!

Get paid to look cool too!

 

[NickH]

Re: Partial FAA Shutdown at midnight, today (7/22/2011)

So here's my question.

If the FAA is shut down, but flights are operating normally, thanks to ATC and inspectors still being there, then, what is the problem?

Seems like the funding problem is solved.

 

[OldTownPilot]

Re: Partial FAA Shutdown at midnight, today (7/22/2011)

And so it should be, if it happens. If you use 75% of the systems resources, you should pay 75% of the costs to keep it usable. Seems logical, right?

Correct.

And guess what, thats already happening with the GA fuel taxes.

The GA fuel tax is over 40 cents per gallon and the airlines pay less than 3 cents.

Train, you don;t know what you are talking about so can it

 

[Apophis]

Re: Partial FAA Shutdown at midnight, today (7/22/2011)

So here's my question.

If the FAA is shut down, but flights are operating normally, thanks to ATC and inspectors still being there, then, what is the problem?

Seems like the funding problem is solved.

AFAIK, only part of the FAA is shut down. As of right now, the operations section of the FAA remains unaffected. This includes ATC, FSDOs, Airman Certification Branch, Aircraft Registration Branch, as well as the Civil Aerospace Medical Institute.

 

[NickH]

Re: Partial FAA Shutdown at midnight, today (7/22/2011)

AFAIK, only part of the FAA is shut down. As of right now, the operations section of the FAA remains unaffected. This includes ATC, FSDOs, Airman Certification Branch, Aircraft Registration Branch, as well as the Civil Aerospace Medical Institute.

Right, that's the point. What are we losing through not having the rest of the behemoth?

 

[Apophis]

Re: Partial FAA Shutdown at midnight, today (7/22/2011)

Right, that's the point. What are we losing through not having the rest of the behemoth?

Basically everything on the airport side of the FAA's operations. Airport Improvement Fund, Airport Certification, all of that stuff is shut down right now. Also, I would imagine if this funding fiasco isn't resolved in the near future, the FAA operations side will eventually be affected.

As of right now though, we aren't losing much.