Unions???

[WacoFan]

"Waco, thats proly the most insightful post anyone has contributed to any debate on unionism.

One question for ya. Do you believe that mentality is good for the us society as a whole?"

I think there are limits to an "it's all about me" attitude. This attitude is more understandable in a business environment but take it to everyday life and we don't get very far as a society. Thinking of what this day (July 4th) is all about, I'm grateful for the masses that came before me that didn't live life thinking "it's all about me".

In a societal context it isn't so much about selfishness as it is about focus. Want to know why so many people are unhappy...the self-help section is always loaded with people...divorce rates are above 50%? My theory is that its about focus. People are constantly searching for what makes them "happy" or their slice of the American Dream ("You must buy houses, it's the American Dream!", "We must create an ownership society so others can share in the American Dream!"). Happiness is creating your own idea of the American Dream and to do that you need an inward focus to identify and then pursue what you want. This is necessarily a selfish notion, but if more people would pursue that course the "happiness dividend" that would be paid would create more cohesion that you speak about. You bring up the Fourth - examine the men at the Continental Congress when they were arguing about whether to even adopt the Declaration - the men from the colonies generally were acting in their own regional self-interest, representing what they thought to be the self-interest of the people that sent them there - and that worked out well.

 

[boondr]

Ok, maybe "surprised" would have been a better word.

That being said, just looking at new car prices, I'd also be pissed! Kia's are expensive these days! What happened to the $11,000 Kias of 3-5 years ago???

Kia has a 10 year 100k warranty on every car so if it does blow at that point it probably has more to do with how they maintained it.

 

[Mike H]

Just for the sake of smacking the hornet's nest with a stick a little bit: Can anybody name an industry in this country that unionization has not either destroyed or brought to the brink of destruction?

Bueller?

... anyone...?

Not the Steel Industry. Nor Textiles, Rubber, or Railroads either. Surely there must be one, isn't there?

OK, carry on...

 

[Tram]

Just for the sake of smacking the hornet's nest with a stick a little bit: Can anybody name an industry in this country that unionization has not either destroyed or brought to the brink of destruction?

Bueller?

... anyone...?

Not the Steel Industry. Nor Textiles, Rubber, or Railroads either. Surely there must be one, isn't there?

OK, carry on...

I'll gladly watch the death of the airlines, rather than participate at a non-union 121 organization and be treated like a slave to continue to fly their airplanes..

 

[jynxyjoe]

Just for the sake of smacking the hornet's nest with a stick a little bit: Can anybody name an industry in this country that unionization has not either destroyed or brought to the brink of destruction?

Bueller?

... anyone...?

Not the Steel Industry. Nor Textiles, Rubber, or Railroads either. Surely there must be one, isn't there?

OK, carry on...

While there may be a order to the life and death of a profession (like a thunderstorm stages; developing-mature-dissipation), new-mature-dying, it's hard to argue a profession would end due to a union's existence. A group of professionals who elect a union may exacerbate the union's pull or contract and make a violent/noisy end of a profession, but unions don't kill anything in this country.

As a profession matures, and it goes from highly technical to layman, you'll will see workers push for a union. Why does this happen? Many reasons. Professionals in the career watch more people come, the job gets simpler with tooling and they may want to try to retain QOL and pay. You may have valid safety and career protection concerns that arise over time that a company won't deal with. Certainly there is a myriad of other concerns employees want to address. A union can sometime delay wage and QOL erosion, however these guestures don't do very much but delay the inevitable.

Is it possible for this union to, over time, kill a goose? Certainly, however only for their company (company is the goose). If other companies come along and thrive with no union employees that could be proof the union killed the company. Although other companies seem to exist just fine with a union shop. That's because unions vary so much from employee group to employee group, never mind a different union representing the same profession (IBT vs ALPA as an example).

The death of a professions can be a murky subject, as an example you can look at employees in a union avionics shop. If a Honeywell needs testing on a box (avionics set), they have to use their union shop. From time to time environmental testing Honeywell needs isn't something that can be done in house, and the box is sent out. Any work that can be done by a shop employee (running a rented diesel 400hz generator for instance) must be done by them. On top of that, when someone from the environmental testing shop is working on Honeywell's box a equal number of people must be paid their travel wages while sitting back home in Rockford (or at work, so an effective double pay split among the testing staff). So while I am testing a box, two guys from Rockford would work with me running silly crap I could do myself after being shown, but Honeywell has to pay them to work those status computers and diesel generators. I know some of your heads are exploding so I'll standby... ... ...

Now someday the manufacture of these boxes will be "revolutionized" and the employee driven model may not work anymore. Instead of row after row of Nasa tested soldering minons, dozens and dozens of engineers, tech and testing spooks (E3 guys are often called spooks), and the managers making the process move efficiently, you may end up with 20 or so robots cranking out boards and boxes like taffy. When that happens a bunch of union employees will lose their livelyhood, and I'm sure a few of you will cheer. Right now though, the market does support their wages (through sales of widgets) and a mature well paid workforce presses on.

Does the union kill the profession, will it? No. A union can sometimes kill a company. Someday a group of professionals may be replaced by tooling or computers. The fight at the end may look like union drama, as the last gasp of a profession is whittled away like the copyists of ages ago (before typewriters).

But how about professional horse shoeing, electricians, or plumbing? Many of those jobs are still union and sometimes entire geographic areas are closed to shops. Horse shoeing still costs about $70 a hour, but the car is still out there. Certainly there is no need for a giant army of horse shoers anymore, the numbers of professionals are thinning if not stagnate. Nothing is dead.

Be careful how you think about this topic. Professions are born, mature, change, and die. Sometimes they may be born, mature, change, mature, change, mature, and it's a 100 years later and they are still around, to die someday in the future. Unions provide a voice to the professional, but never can they tell the market to support their wages indefinitely. It is possible to delay the inevitable for years at a time, but soon enough whatever part of the market that holds up those professional wages (artificial now by some delay tactic) will collapse. Unions may prolong death of a skilled job, they may do wonderful things to increase the QOL and pay and safety of a profession, but ultimately the union does not kill a profession any more than it creates it.

Yes I know this is WAY too long of a response. I wouldn't even read the whole thing.

 

[Mike H]

, but unions don't kill anything in this country.

GM & Chrysler bond holders would argue otherwise.

The New England states used to be home not only to the nation's biggest textile mills, they were home to virtually all of the nation's textile machinery manufacturers. They are all gone now. First the textile mills moved south and then out of the country entirely because of labor costs. The machinery manufacturers, having no customers anymore, went out of business.

Pittsburgh and Buffalo used to be the center of the western world's steel production- which, in effect meant the World's Steel Production, employing tens of thousands of people. Oh, their union got them great contracts- upwards of $40 per hour not including benefits, 26 weeks of paid vacation per year and rock-solid job security- well, that is until the steel companies went bankrupt and 90% of those jobs disappeared. But those final contracts were Golden. Especially for the Union Leadership. And I'm sure they had plenty of the rank & file totally convinced- like Tram, above- that they'd rather see their industry die than be a slave to a non-union shop. Well, they got their wish.

 

[Gonzo]

GM & Chrysler bond holders would argue otherwise.

So you think it was the unions that almost killed GM and Chrysler and not that fact that they were making POSs that looked like poop and nobody wanted to buy them.

 

[Cessna414JJB]

Yes I know this is WAY too long of a response. I wouldn't even read the whole thing.

I read it, and somehow I liked it.

I think there are limits to an "it's all about me" attitude. This attitude is more understandable in a business environment but take it to everyday life and we don't get very far as a society. Thinking of what this day (July 4th) is all about, I'm grateful for the masses that came before me that didn't live life thinking "it's all about me".

That it;s all about me attitude portrayed above is present in a large part of our society and probably largely to blame for the fact that our workforce needs unions and representation against modern day slavery. To bad that unions develop the "cut throat" environment they do. Everything is subject to power and control games.

One of the things I do not understand is how these slave drivers can substantially call themselves "conservatives" when all they really do is to aid in the production of liberals.

I hope the quick dollar made on the back of little ants (numbers, as referred to above, kept in check with fake compassion and leverage) is worth having an environment where tough, realistic and fair business has no chance to exist anymore. That's what I see on the horizon. The fun part is that those who ride their employees like idiotic donkeys will eventually fall to their own sword. Then is the time to see if the riches created will last for the rest of the life, or if we've got another fallen emperor crying foul. Treat your employees in such a way that you can stand in front of them and ask them not to vote liberal, or unionize, for that matter.

 

[darrenf]

So you think it was the unions that almost killed GM and Chrysler and not that fact that they were making POSs that looked like poop and nobody wanted to buy them.

Not to mention it reinforces Jnxy's point. They are companies, not an industry.

 

[Mike H]

So you think it was the unions that almost killed GM and Chrysler and not that fact that they were making POSs that looked like poop and nobody wanted to buy them.

No, their problem was not that nobody would buy their cars, it was that nobody would buy them at a price that was profitable.

 

[Gonzo]

No, their problem was not that nobody would buy their cars, it was that nobody would buy them at a price that was profitable.

Because they were POS that looked bad. Mazda and VW both have UAW workers and seem to be doing fine. Maybe it is because people will pay a little more for a better car.

The free market will kill a company long before a union ever could.

 

[Cessna414JJB]

Maybe it is because people will pay a little more for a better car.

Generally, the further you reduce the price of any given POS out there, the more of it you can sell. Sometimes selling short is more profitable than trying to produce a recognition of quality and charge more for it. There's your $99 airline passenger seat. Fortunately, unprofitable businesses cannot retain professionals as employees, which then affects quality, safety and operational intellect and it usually diminishes the products/ services perceptional value.

We can't save money by spending it, hence we raise the price. Since we're serving red figures, we can't logically pay more to our employees. Morale goes down.
There's your airline industry. In the end, you have a whole shebang of people racing on the bottom, circling the drain trying to squeeze the last few dollars out of what was once a profession. It's a dying industry and we all seem to know that. But, it's easier to squeeze the last few bucks out of it, than to change it from the ground up.

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

So you think it was the unions that almost killed GM and Chrysler and not that fact that they were making POSs that looked like poop and nobody wanted to buy them.

The 300 looked like a Bentley! What more do you want?

 

[flyer8]

GM & Chrysler bond holders would argue otherwise.

The New England states used to be home not only to the nation's biggest textile mills, they were home to virtually all of the nation's textile machinery manufacturers. They are all gone now. First the textile mills moved south and then out of the country entirely because of labor costs. The machinery manufacturers, having no customers anymore, went out of business.

Pittsburgh and Buffalo used to be the center of the western world's steel production- which, in effect meant the World's Steel Production, employing tens of thousands of people. Oh, their union got them great contracts- upwards of $40 per hour not including benefits, 26 weeks of paid vacation per year and rock-solid job security- well, that is until the steel companies went bankrupt and 90% of those jobs disappeared. But those final contracts were Golden. Especially for the Union Leadership. And I'm sure they had plenty of the rank & file totally convinced- like Tram, above- that they'd rather see their industry die than be a slave to a non-union shop. Well, they got their wish.

It's called globalization.

Most of the stuff that is gone would've been gone anyways, the unions did their jobs by keeping it here as long as possible and getting the most out of it.

 

[queeno]

GM & Chrysler bond holders would argue otherwise.

The New England states used to be home not only to the nation's biggest textile mills, they were home to virtually all of the nation's textile machinery manufacturers. They are all gone now. First the textile mills moved south and then out of the country entirely because of labor costs. The machinery manufacturers, having no customers anymore, went out of business.

Pittsburgh and Buffalo used to be the center of the western world's steel production- which, in effect meant the World's Steel Production, employing tens of thousands of people. Oh, their union got them great contracts- upwards of $40 per hour not including benefits, 26 weeks of paid vacation per year and rock-solid job security- well, that is until the steel companies went bankrupt and 90% of those jobs disappeared. But those final contracts were Golden. Especially for the Union Leadership. And I'm sure they had plenty of the rank & file totally convinced- like Tram, above- that they'd rather see their industry die than be a slave to a non-union shop. Well, they got their wish.

you know nothing about the steel mill problems espically in Buffalo, my father was a A rate machinist at the Bethlehem Steel plant in Lackawana and when he took an early retirement in 1987 his hourly pay was $16.50 an hour not even close to your $40 figure. when Bethlehem finally closed the last divison in Lackawana, the Coke Ovens in late 1990s the workers were only makeing about $20 an hour and had lost most benefits in the mid 1980s. yes they had a good contract back in the day but your lie of 26 weeks vaction a YEAR is a joke. yes they did get 26 week vacation but only ONCE and only after 20 years with the company.it was more than the Union that brought down the Lackawana Plant but its easyest to blame the workers Union.

OG

 

[O&M]

Treat your employees in such a way that you can stand in front of them and ask them not to vote liberal, or unionize, for that matter.

I do. I pay my employees a fair market wage for the job they do for me. They're not going to find a substantially better wage anywhere else in this industry. I provide as clean and safe a work environment as I can. I provide as much notice on my employees' work schedule as my business allows for. I pay my employees on time, and at the agreed upon pay rate.

I mean really, what else can one reasonably expect from an employer? Employers are not social concerns. They don't "owe" their employees a certain lifestyle or standard of living. I have work that I need done. You need a job. It's a symbiotic relationship. If you don't think I pay you enough, then feel free to find greener pastures. I'll write you a letter of reccomendation. But don't expect me to take on even greater risk than I already have by paying you far beyond what you are worth to me, merely because you think it is the "right" thing to do.

And BTW, how come doing the "right" thing always means the employer "treating the employees better," rather that the employee advancing his position through hard work and ingenuity?

Now, in regards to unions: my main problem with unions is that they insist on a closed shop, and in some cases, a closed state. Employment decisions should be between the employer and the employee. No one should have to gain the approval of a third party to get a job. And, while we are on that subject, its interesting to me that pilots will rail against PFJ until they cows come home, but yet somehow have no problem paying a union for the right to work at a certain carrier.

 

[jynxyjoe]

And, while we are on that subject, its interesting to me that pilots will rail against PFJ until they cows come home, but yet somehow have no problem paying a union for the right to work at a certain carrier.

Eh, I don't work for ALPA, ALPA works for me. It's strange how you perceive a union shop, it's like you are purposely looking at this backwards.

 

[dbrault17]

What kind of employees do you have? Jw

 

[Cessna414JJB]

I do. I pay my employees a fair market wage for the job they do for me. They're not going to find a substantially better wage anywhere else in this industry. I provide as clean and safe a work environment as I can. I provide as much notice on my employees' work schedule as my business allows for. I pay my employees on time, and at the agreed upon pay rate.

I mean really, what else can one reasonably expect from an employer? Employers are not social concerns. They don't "owe" their employees a certain lifestyle or standard of living. I have work that I need done. You need a job. It's a symbiotic relationship. If you don't think I pay you enough, then feel free to find greener pastures. I'll write you a letter of reccomendation. But don't expect me to take on even greater risk than I already have by paying you far beyond what you are worth to me, merely because you think it is the "right" thing to do.

And BTW, how come doing the "right" thing always means the employer "treating the employees better," rather that the employee advancing his position through hard work and ingenuity?

Now, in regards to unions: my main problem with unions is that they insist on a closed shop, and in some cases, a closed state. Employment decisions should be between the employer and the employee. No one should have to gain the approval of a third party to get a job. And, while we are on that subject, its interesting to me that pilots will rail against PFJ until they cows come home, but yet somehow have no problem paying a union for the right to work at a certain carrier.

Whoops?

Did you read all of the things I didn't say into my post, or were you just responding to some other persons post?

Maybe your industry is HVAC, or you employ truckers, or janitors, I really don't know. Whatever kind of business you run might be a happy place compared that what some others have to deal with. I do believe employers are social concerns, but not more than their employees. Both are responsible to each other in some way or another.

I was referring to another posters attitude of superiority in considering the majority of his employees senseless schmucks, comparing them to motor oil, tools or numbers. It's that attitude that may help to arouse people's desire to gain help from third parties, in dealing with how they are treated. When push comes to shove, things change in a hurry, the business fails or becomes a high turnover menace. I guess what I am trying to say is that it's best to be realistic in applying conservative measures to how you run your business, but not to the extreme of creating liberals out of people you could have had on your side. If your employees feel as if they need help in dealing with you, something is FUBAR.

About the SJS & PFJ comment:

Those who speak up about their displeasure with PFJ programs may have come to the realization that the pool of fresh blood behind them is endlessly deep and bubbling in ecstasy. Not sure the total gist of PFJ Pilot Careers is fully understood by those who're looking down in anger and fear for being replaced by cheap bottom feeders and minimalists. Welcome to Me - Me - Me - instant gratification and a society of entitled narcissists always putting their own interests first. Can't buy high and sell low and expect to make a decent buck.

I've never walked a mile in a commuter pilots shoes and never will, hence I have never looked behind the curtain of a pilots union. My feeling tells me that the industry has a broken backbone and it is slowly having it's live and love squeezed out of it. Just because that's depressing is not a good reason not to say it. The unions might just be the lengthy beginning of the end. They obviously represent interests of people who no longer have a connection to the core of their industry/ employers goals. Both sides are out of whack, do not understand each other and do not negotiate with each others best interest in mind. That's not a recipe for success in business and it is not a recipe for success in life. If I need counsel or a middleman before or during communication with my employer/ employee, but even in private matters - there's not really much of a worthy connection and probably not much of value in talking in the first place. IMH&UO, Unions do nothing, over the long run.

Reactive short term solutions (also called knee jerks) have never fixed long term problems.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Because they were POS that looked bad. Mazda and VW both have UAW workers and seem to be doing fine. Maybe it is because people will pay a little more for a better car.

Not only that, but look at all of the European car manufacturers. BMW, Mercedes, Land Rover, Audi, the list goes on. All of them are unionized. Hell, even their middle managers are unionized. I got a Jaguar late last year, and the salesman was a former middle manager in one of the manufacturing plants in England. He was a member of a union, and he was supportive of the factory floor workers who worked for him being members of a union as well. He had 6 weeks of vacation a year, excellent benefits, and a good salary. So did his workers. Jaguar was sold to Tata Motors (an Indian company), but all manufacturing still takes place with unionized workers in England. And despite all of this unionization, all of these "exhorbitant" benefits, all of this vacation time, all of these high salaries, Jaguar is immensely profitable for Tata Motors. They recently reported a $1.5 billion net profit for the past year on the Jaguar division of their company, on $9.5 billion in revenue.

Unions killing car companies? Ridiculous. Crappy designs kill car companies. Arrogant executives kill car companies. Focusing all of your attention on union busting instead of design and marketing kills car companies. When you design a car that people actually want to buy, and then market it well, you can give your employees great salaries and benefits, and still watch the profits poor in. But when you design crap cars like a Pontiac GrandAm, nobody wants to be caught dead buying one, and you can pay your workers virtually nothing and still lose money.

Now, in regards to unions: my main problem with unions is that they insist on a closed shop, and in some cases, a closed state.

Do you ever check your facts before posting? Closed shops are illegal in America. Have been for decades.