The infamous "pilot shortage" again...

[jtrain609]

I'm not sure pay is even the primary problem at some regionals. I think Doug's argument still has merit, but would contend that overall treatment is the factor preventing some qualified pilots from entertaining the idea of working for a regional. If regional airlines made an effort to improve schedules (in line with modern sleep science and commutable on at least one end) and allow pilots more schedule control (swapping, dropping, personal days, etc.), I think there would be more interest.

Pay is certainly a factor, but I think there are a lot of "soft benefits" that need improvement as well.

Truth, and a great example:

I got food poisoning on the road a while back. I mean we're talking about your insides liquifying food poisoning, horrible stuff. I bang in off the trip, and have to get from something like Memphis back home, on my own, because the company will only DH back to base. Once I'm home, I'm so tired and dehydrated (been up 36 hours at this point) that I can't drive myself back from the airport. Bad stuff.

My wife's boss says, "Just take a half day, go get him and then get him to the doctor" without thinking about it.

Not, "We really need you to finish this turn."

Not, "Well I can mark you off sick, but I'll have to write you up because you've had too many sinus infections this year."

Not, "We don't have the staffing."

Not, "Are you sure you can't finish the trip?"

Now with that being said my chief is an AWESOME guy, and any crap I'd have gotten he would have taken care of, but not everybody is so lucky.

 

[C150J]

I'm the first to say that many gripes in aviation can be found in other professions. However, some of the issues - like the example you mentioned - are unfathomable in other lines of work. I remember when a friend of mine was called into an assistant chief's office when she refused a "junior-man/draft/order to work on a day off" because she couldn't find/afford a babysitter for her new-born. To me, that is why I would prefer not to return to the regionals. I didn't mind the type of flying, the people I worked with, and wasn't necessarily financially uncomfortable: I just couldn't tolerate the staffing model. If they designed airplanes like they staffed some regional airlines, you'd see a lot of single-engine/generator aircraft with every MEL-able component removed.

 

[derg]

Oh I agree, but it's hard to quantify employee treatment.

Unfortunately, the fresh-cut MBA's running some of the airlines haven't figured out that having a high employee morale *saves money* because if your employees feel that decisions they make have a positive or negative impact, they're going to have the confidence and self-interest to make better decisions.

If it's a company where they take the Ayn Rand approach of "YURRRRR LUCKY TO HAVE A JOB, DROID!!!" well, productivity goes down, costs go up and your product will suck. Show me a sucky regional and I'll show you a company that treats it's employees like replaceable 12 year olds.

Companies that lead by creating an incentive to make better decisions will succeed because your employees feel empowered.

Companies that *control* by creating a dis-incentive to avoid bad decisions will eventually fail because their employees are crippled by fear and are wholly apathetic.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Thats a whole bunch of working to make more than $80k a year. You only get paid by the flight hour right?

No, as others have mentioned, it's by the credit hour, not the flight hour. When I bid standups, I routinely fly only 30 hours, but credit 70. In a month with training or vacation, it might be 78. When I was on reserve, I would usually fly about 70 hours and credit 100+. The average AirTran pilot flies in the neighborhood of 800 hours but gets paid for 1150.

How does it happen? Well, with the standup line it's simple: you don't fly hardly at all, but you still get guarantee, so all of that extra credit above block is soft pay. But for a guy flying regular trips, it can work like this: you fly a 3-day trip that reports at 2100 on the first day. You fly a single leg from ATL-TPA. Block time is only about 1:45. But, because we have a duty period minimum in our contract, you get paid at least 4 hours. So, 4 hours of pay for 1.75 hours of flying on the first day. Then, you fly two legs the next day, but you have a big break in the middle of the day. You block 4 hours, but are on duty for 10 hours. We have a duty rig in our contract, so although you only fly 4 hours, you get paid 4.5 hours. An extra half hour of soft pay. Then, on the last day, you fly a single leg back to ATL and finish at 10am. Block is 1:30. Again, you get the 4 hour duty period minimum.

So, for 7.25 hours of flying, you get paid 12.5 hours. But, it gets even better. We have premium pay for pairings that are still in open time within 2 days of the start of the pairing. So, instead of that pairing being worth 12.5 hours, it becomes worth 18.75 if no one picks it up before the two day rundown. Not bad for coming in late on the first day and finishing early on the third day. Basically only a day and a half of flying for 18.75 hours of credit, which would be $1,700 at my pay rate, or $3,100 for a senior captain. You see, flying at the airlines ain't as bad as you sometimes hear. The bankruptcy contracts are slowly being replaced with much better deals, although they still aren't pre-9/11 contracts. With the hiring coming at the majors, you may not have to spend a whole lot of time at the regionals before you get a job at a major making pretty good money.

 

[Nick]

Thats a whole bunch of working to make more than $80k a year. You only get paid by the flight hour right?

I think it's been covered already in this thread but I'll vouch for the same as people above have said.

Even as a reserve under a bare-bones contract, at the end of June I will have flown 180 hours this year but credited 480.

 

[E_Dawg]

The airlines pay 20,000 a year to start. Today, the financial barriers to even qualify for the job are in the tens of thousands of dollars. The job involves being away from home for the MAJORITY of the month. The numbers don't add up and neither does the job. Not surprising that that there is a shortage at the regional level, not surprising at all.

 

[mshunter]

No, as others have mentioned, it's by the credit hour, not the flight hour. When I bid standups, I routinely fly only 30 hours, but credit 70. In a month with training or vacation, it might be 78. When I was on reserve, I would usually fly about 70 hours and credit 100+. The average AirTran pilot flies in the neighborhood of 800 hours but gets paid for 1150.

How does it happen? Well, with the standup line it's simple: you don't fly hardly at all, but you still get guarantee, so all of that extra credit above block is soft pay. But for a guy flying regular trips, it can work like this: you fly a 3-day trip that reports at 2100 on the first day. You fly a single leg from ATL-TPA. Block time is only about 1:45. But, because we have a duty period minimum in our contract, you get paid at least 4 hours. So, 4 hours of pay for 1.75 hours of flying on the first day. Then, you fly two legs the next day, but you have a big break in the middle of the day. You block 4 hours, but are on duty for 10 hours. We have a duty rig in our contract, so although you only fly 4 hours, you get paid 4.5 hours. An extra half hour of soft pay. Then, on the last day, you fly a single leg back to ATL and finish at 10am. Block is 1:30. Again, you get the 4 hour duty period minimum.

So, for 7.25 hours of flying, you get paid 12.5 hours. But, it gets even better. We have premium pay for pairings that are still in open time within 2 days of the start of the pairing. So, instead of that pairing being worth 12.5 hours, it becomes worth 18.75 if no one picks it up before the two day rundown. Not bad for coming in late on the first day and finishing early on the third day. Basically only a day and a half of flying for 18.75 hours of credit, which would be $1,700 at my pay rate, or $3,100 for a senior captain. You see, flying at the airlines ain't as bad as you sometimes hear. The bankruptcy contracts are slowly being replaced with much better deals, although they still aren't pre-9/11 contracts. With the hiring coming at the majors, you may not have to spend a whole lot of time at the regionals before you get a job at a major making pretty good money.

Alright, I think see how the pay scale work. How long were you actually at work to make that money? What I mean is, from the time you left home, till the time you got home?

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Alright, I think see how the pay scale work. How long were you actually at work to make that money? What I mean is, from the time you left home, till the time you got home?

Depends. When I do standups, I usually leave the house at about 9-10pm, and I'm home by about 8-9am, and I do that three days a week at most. That comes to between 100-150 hours time away from base for the month. Typical time away from base for a regular line would be in the range of 275-325 hours.

 

[Hootie]

there will never be shortage here is why. you pay somebody enough they will do anything. airline travelers will only pay so much for a ticket before demand diminishes. management told me that pilot salaries are the most critical item that affects ticket costs. add it all up and it ALWAYS equals zero.

the article has as much credibility as me complaining about a stripper shortage if i go into a club with a pocket of quarters.

 

[Cptnchia]

management told me that pilot salaries are the most critical item that affects ticket costs.

You've been lied to. Pilot costs make up a small percentage of the cost of a ticket. They tell you it does though to manage your expectations.

 

[ProudPilot]

The second year pay is actually not that bad for a non-degree requiring job.

Um, I just started at the railroad, $48,000 while in training, $65,000 - $72,000 by year 1, and $75,000 - $120,000 for the rest of the career. It requires a high school diploma.

I'm home every other night, 2 days off a week, and I get compensated very fairly with very good benefits. So no, $32,000 a year as an FO is not good pay. I would gladly go back if I could start at $55,000 /yr with good benefits and finish around $140,000 - $160,000. Below that, there would have to be very good time off or other perks.

 

[dbrault17]

Um, I just started at the railroad, $48,000 while in training, $65,000 - $72,000 by year 1, and $75,000 - $120,000 for the rest of the career. It requires a high school diploma.

I'm home every other night, 2 days off a week, and I get compensated very fairly with very good benefits. So no, $32,000 a year as an FO is not good pay. I would gladly go back if I could start at $55,000 /yr with good benefits and finish around $140,000 - $160,000. Below that, there would have to be very good time off or other perks.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

You've been lied to. Pilot costs make up a small percentage of the cost of a ticket. They tell you it does though to manage your expectations.

Exactly. AirTran's cost per available seat mile (CASM), which is the industry indicator for costs, is 10.35 cents. AirTran's PCASM (pilot CASM), is roughly 0.80 cents, maybe a hair less. So, the total cost of AirTran's pilots, including all salary, benefits, work rules, etc., comes to 7.7% of the airline's total costs. By contrast, fuel makes up about 40% of an airline's costs. It's been up to 50% in years past during the spikes.

 

[C150J]

Exactly. AirTran's cost per available seat mile (CASM), which is the industry indicator for costs, is 10.35 cents. AirTran's PCASM (pilot CASM), is roughly 0.80 cents, maybe a hair less. So, the total cost of AirTran's pilots, including all salary, benefits, work rules, etc., comes to 7.7% of the airline's total costs. By contrast, fuel makes up about 40% of an airline's costs. It's been up to 50% in years past during the spikes.

And as long as airlines are "managing expectations," pilot costs will remain variable and not fixed. You can't convince fuel it's too expensive until you stop buying it. You can "scare" pilots on an analog scale. I really respect management and union teams that are looking for a mutual win-win and deal in complete transparency with their pilots.

 

[Lunchbox]

Um, I just started at the railroad, $48,000 while in training, $65,000 - $72,000 by year 1, and $75,000 - $120,000 for the rest of the career. It requires a high school diploma.

I hope you know that's rare pay, I started less than 65k with my MBA but I'm happy for you.

 

[CrippleHawk]

I belive it has happened I belive it is from Washington Dulles Intl. to Madrid

 

[ProudPilot]

I hope you know that's rare pay, I started less than 65k with my MBA but I'm happy for you.

Don't get me wrong, I'm going back for my masters. I might go build UAV's or maybe new engines for the railroad, I don't know yet. I do know there is more money in being at the forefront than being the one running it day to day. I'm looking forward to a good retirement either way and hopefully there is an aircraft for me the day I retire. I'm looking forward to a 25 yr old P2006T if I can.

Oh yeah.

The thing is, I enjoy that we have built a middle american model in the US. With inflation though you should be looking at $75,000 - $90,000 to make that happen. What we think of the american dream happened on a college education with around 10,000 - 12,000 /yr in 1950. That works out to a bit over $85,000 today. Let's say that a pilot made $17,000, really good pay for then right? That comes out to $161,000 today. Now the economy is different I understand, but we can buy a lot less today working a lot more and we're haggling on average pay of any american. We are highly trained, inconvenienced a lot, and have the threat of losing our job at any moment for any reason. So we should be paid higher than average as we have higher risk. Nuclear workers start at $70,000/yr but have a safety net for their job, and high ability to avoid risk. We hit a bird and it hits the windshield right we're gone. So why can't get get higher pay?

It's a rant, but I either way a lot of time off and lower pay, or the ability to risk my well being for higher pay. I will not accept a low QOL and low pay. Those with SJS, go for it. It wears off faster than you think.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Wow, that's a beautiful airplane. I don't think I've ever seen one before. Is it an experimental, or production airplane?

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

It's a production airplane. Gets really good gas mileage apparently.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

I'm the first to say that many gripes in aviation can be found in other professions. However, some of the issues - like the example you mentioned - are unfathomable in other lines of work. I remember when a friend of mine was called into an assistant chief's office when she refused a "junior-man/draft/order to work on a day off" because she couldn't find/afford a babysitter for her new-born. To me, that is why I would prefer not to return to the regionals. I didn't mind the type of flying, the people I worked with, and wasn't necessarily financially uncomfortable: I just couldn't tolerate the staffing model. If they designed airplanes like they staffed some regional airlines, you'd see a lot of single-engine/generator aircraft with every MEL-able component removed.

True story. I got married Oct of '09. Told one of the chief pilots about it about a month and a half in advance. He said "try to bid for it off, but no worries, you'll have the time off no matter what happens. If you can't bid it off, come talk to us." Tried, but didn't happen. Went in and talked to another guy. He said "try to drop/swap for it off. If you can't do that, come see us about a week in advance and we'll drop it". Nobody wanted to sit reserve over a weekend (at the time I was 2 from the bottom of my airplane) and I had no luck. Went in and talked to a 3rd chief pilot. He said "hmmm....not sure if we'll be able to do that. Reserve coverage doesn't look very good."

I ended up telling him that i would hand him my badge and walk out the door if that's what it took. He admitted to being unreasonable and dropped them from my schedule. Absolutely unacceptable.