Schuster amendment dropped from FAA Bill

GaTechKid said:
His observations seem to be fair to me having worked at SKW and Colgan. I'd bet the same is true at a lot of other regionals as well.
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Eh, you should have seen the pairings for Pinnacle in '07 and '08 when we came across their paths. My trips at Mesaba always included one if not more RR overnights. Nature of the beast (the memphis push schedule) puts us at odds with duty times, and 14 hour scheduled days are not uncommon in my experience.
 
Roger said:
At this point I'm really just arguing the point because I find it interesting to try to take emotion and personal involvement out of the picture and look at what accident numbers and people's purchasing behavior says about our real priorities, which are often different than what WE say our priorities are. Also, because it's Saturday morning and I'm home alone and bored.
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We can take emotion and personal involvement out of the picture when airplanes no longer require humans to operate safely.
 
O&M said:
In all the years I worked 121 (dispatch, not pilot), it was very rare for a crew to actually work those 14 hour duty days. When they did happen, it was usually the result of irregular operations, not a planned schedule. The typical duty day for the carriers I worked at involved 4-5 legs, for 4-5 hours of flight time, over a 9-10 hour duty period, followed by a 15 hour rest period. This was true about 90% of the time. There were exceptions of course, but not that many. But were a person to judge things by this thread alone, one would be led to believe that the skies are full of bleary-eyed pilots, and only through sheer luck are airplanes not burning smoking holes in the ground. It is intellectually dishonest to say so, and those who engage in this hyperbole do themselves and their profession no good.

.
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I don't know what "airline" you worked for, but i'm calling BS on this one. Maybe you dispatched crop dusters.

Simple math indicates that a pilot can't get five legs done in 10 hours with a total of 4-5 hours flight time unless you are flying 30 minute legs and even that would be just about impossible. It takes 20 minutes to taxi out of a busy airport and it takes 20 minutes to get back in.

The fatigue issue is real and pilots deserve (and should have) 8 hours of good sleep between duty days. Don't try to brush this under the rug. It's not safe.

Joe
 
JOEFRIDAY2 said:
I don't know what "airline" you worked for, but i'm calling BS on this one. Maybe you dispatched crop dusters.

Simple math indicates that a pilot can't get five legs done in 10 hours with a total of 4-5 hours flight time unless you are flying 30 minute legs and even that would be just about impossible. It takes 20 minutes to taxi out of a busy airport and it takes 20 minutes to get back in.

The fatigue issue is real and pilots deserve (and should have) 8 hours of good sleep between duty days. Don't try to brush this under the rug. It's not safe.

Joe
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Cape Air, Colgan, and Great Lakes probably could do it. I could see it being doing during the "commuter" airlines days more than in than in the current regional arena. Heck, today I could have sworn I heard a Skywest aircraft on clearance in Toronto requesting a clearance to Houston!
 
GaTechKid said:
While affecting all pilots, this bill has everything to do with regionals.
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according to the testimony, the bill was directly related to 135 operations. Specifically the air ambulance end of the operations, (which in my opinion is dis-ingenuous, because it makes up such a small portion of the 135 operators.) This amendment was put forth by the ATA to save money for the companies that it represents. I have had it both ways, short flight with nine hours rest then short flight, and fifteen hours straight duty with the full eight hours behind the stick. I don't care what your regional does, not everyone has it so nice, be glad you have what you need but please don't stick me with crap. If you have it good now, it should only get better...right?
 
JOEFRIDAY2 said:
I don't know what "airline" you worked for, but i'm calling BS on this one. Maybe you dispatched crop dusters.

Simple math indicates that a pilot can't get five legs done in 10 hours with a total of 4-5 hours flight time unless you are flying 30 minute legs and even that would be just about impossible. It takes 20 minutes to taxi out of a busy airport and it takes 20 minutes to get back in.

The fatigue issue is real and pilots deserve (and should have) 8 hours of good sleep between duty days. Don't try to brush this under the rug. It's not safe.

Joe
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If I am working a busy trip, I'll usually fly 4 legs for 5 hours credit in 9 hours duty or 5 legs for 7 hours credit in 11 hours duty, and I don't fly cropdusters. Nowhere in O&M's post did I read that he didn't believe the rest rules needed to be changed.
 
dasleben said:
The bill had to do with rest rules for supplemental carriers.
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Deleted, but props for quoting me right after. :) All my previous comments are directed at the new 121 rest rules coming out this summer and I thought that was what O&M was referring to. My bad.
 
JOEFRIDAY2 said:
I don't know what "airline" you worked for, but i'm calling BS on this one. Maybe you dispatched crop dusters.

Simple math indicates that a pilot can't get five legs done in 10 hours with a total of 4-5 hours flight time unless you are flying 30 minute legs and even that would be just about impossible. It takes 20 minutes to taxi out of a busy airport and it takes 20 minutes to get back in.

The fatigue issue is real and pilots deserve (and should have) 8 hours of good sleep between duty days. Don't try to brush this under the rug. It's not safe.


Joe
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Not really that hard. I my bid for next month and got a bad line here is the trip:
3-Legs/5.15 Pay/7.25 Duty/13.20 Overnight
4-Legs/5.55 Pay/10.15 Duty/14.25 Overnight
4-Legs/4.25 Pay/8.20 Duty/9.20 Overnight
3-Legs/3.35 Pay/5.40 Duty
 
Gonzo said:
Not really that hard. I my bid for next month and got a bad line here is the trip:
3-Legs/5.15 Pay/7.25 Duty/13.20 Overnight
4-Legs/5.55 Pay/10.15 Duty/14.25 Overnight
4-Legs/4.25 Pay/8.20 Duty/9.20 Overnight
3-Legs/3.35 Pay/5.40 Duty
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Not to nit pick here, but your 3rd day looks like it would not comply with the proposed work rules.

I curious to know how much time you are under control off the company on your second 10.15 duty day? I can see you are getting paid for 5.55 flight hours, but how much clock time are you giving to the company to get those 5.55 hours?

Joe
 
JOEFRIDAY2 said:
Not to nit pick here, but your 3rd day looks like it would not comply with the proposed work rules.

I curious to know how much time you are under control off the company on your second 10.15 duty day? I can see you are getting paid for 5.55 flight hours, but how much clock time are you giving to the company to get those 5.55 hours?

Joe
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Is this a joke? He is giving them 10.15 hours. We fly planes, we don't make schedules. The things we have that protect us into flying an efficient schedule are potential rest rules as well as duty rigs.
 
Monk said:
according to the testimony, the bill was directly related to 135 operations. Specifically the air ambulance end of the operations, (which in my opinion is dis-ingenuous, because it makes up such a small portion of the 135 operators.) This amendment was put forth by the ATA to save money for the companies that it represents. I have had it both ways, short flight with nine hours rest then short flight, and fifteen hours straight duty with the full eight hours behind the stick. I don't care what your regional does, not everyone has it so nice, be glad you have what you need but please don't stick me with crap. If you have it good now, it should only get better...right?
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Air ambulance is very much a large part of 135. On Demand charter. There are no different rules under 135 for air ambo, save for HEMS but those things don't fly anyway...

In my experience there is very little that happens in the air ambulance world that requires this gotta go right now mentality that leads to the abuse of rest rules, ie we didn't call you so you are in rest. Two 14 hour overlapping shifts cover for the vast majority of NECESSARY transports, ie critical going to a higher level of care, not inter facility movements because the patient has an appointment at 9am and walks on the aircraft.
 
cencal83406 said:
Is this a joke? He is giving them 10.15 hours. We fly planes, we don't make schedules. The things we have that protect us into flying an efficient schedule are potential rest rules as well as duty rigs.
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You sound like a good guy and you are correct in that the things that protect us are efficient schedules and the proposed work rules.

However, I would take the position that this pilot is giving the company more than 10.15 hours. The industry has convinced many (if not most) that this pilot (and pilots like him) are under company control for only the 10.15 hours. There is more to it than the 10.15 hours and we all need to understand that.

Anything past the 10.15 hours does extend into "clock time", yet the clock still has only 24 hours and can not be extended. Currently the extention of the 10.15 hours comes out of our rest time--not the duty time.

If this were not a problem, we would have have Sully taking the position that pilots are getting 4 1/2 to 5 1/2 hours of sleep instead of the 8 hours that most people need to go a "regular job" let alone having to fly passengers around on a jet aircraft.

The proposed rules insure that the rest time is always in place and that additional duty time or clock time does not come out of our rest time. That's a good thing for the passengers and the pilots.

Joe
 
JOEFRIDAY2 said:
You sound like a good guy and you are correct in that the things that protect us are efficient schedules and the proposed work rules.

However, I would take the position that this pilot is giving the company more than 10.15 hours. The industry has convinced many (if not most) that this pilot (and pilots like him) are under company control for only the 10.15 hours. There is more to it than the 10.15 hours and we all need to understand that.

Anything past the 10.15 hours does extend into "clock time", yet the clock still has only 24 hours and can not be extended. Currently the extention of the 10.15 hours comes out of our rest time--not the duty time.

If this were not a problem, we would have have Sully taking the position that pilots are getting 4 1/2 to 5 1/2 hours of sleep instead of the 8 hours that most people need to go a "regular job" let alone having to fly passengers around on a jet aircraft.

The proposed rules insure that the rest time is always in place and that additional duty time or clock time does not come out of our rest time. That's a good thing for the passengers and the pilots.

Joe
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I think I get what you are asking so here it goes.

Day-1: Has a 1530(1615 flight) CST show time and an end time of 2355(2340 flight) EST. Between waking up at 0800 EST for my commute and the fact the hotel sucks about being at the airport at this overnight. I am losing 30 mins of rest on both sides of the overnight.

I am looking at a real life duty day of 16.25 and an overnight of 12.20.


Day-2: Add 30 mins on the front side and 45 mins on the back side to give me a duty day of 11.30 and an overnight of 13.25.

Day-3: Add 15 mins to the front side but the hotel in in the airport so most of the time I am checked in within 15 mins. So nothing to add on the back side. Call it 8.35 duty and 9.20 for the overnight.

Day-4: It is a 5.40 duty day plus my commute home.

It that what you wanted to know?
 
Gonzo said:
I think I get what you are asking so here it goes.

Day-1: Has a 1530(1615 flight) CST show time and an end time of 2355(2340 flight) EST. Between waking up at 0800 EST for my commute and the fact the hotel sucks about being at the airport at this overnight. I am losing 30 mins of rest on both sides of the overnight.

I am looking at a real life duty day of 16.25 and an overnight of 12.20.


Day-2: Add 30 mins on the front side and 45 mins on the back side to give me a duty day of 11.30 and an overnight of 13.25.

Day-3: Add 15 mins to the front side but the hotel in in the airport so most of the time I am checked in within 15 mins. So nothing to add on the back side. Call it 8.35 duty and 9.20 for the overnight.

Day-4: It is a 5.40 duty day plus my commute home.

It that what you wanted to know?
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That is exactly what I was asking. Thanks for sharing.

Joe
 
I know a lot of folks come here, that are not pilots, and might like to know how the pilot pay works.

On this trip our pilot is controlled by the company for 41.30 hours (not including rest time) and is paid for 18.30 hours while being controlled by the company for these 41.30 hours.

If our pilot is paid at a rate of $30 an hour for the fight time, then his effective pay rate for the 41.30 hours is $14.97 per hour. (This would not include any overtime pay)

Our pilot is away from home for about 73 hours on this trip.

As you can see our pilot spends more hours working for the company each week than the average American worker.

In addition our pilot is away from home for 28 additional hours per week than the average American worker.

In this example our pilot will be away from home for almost 4 days.

Joe
 
I find show and release times (coupled with duty time) way more of a factor than the number of legs and how much time you actually get paid for.

I'm just finishing up a 5 day reserve block that had me flying every single day and went like this.

Day 1: Show at 5:15am, fly 4 legs, released at 3:30pm.
Day 2: Show at 5am, fly 3 legs, sit for 3 hours and then deadhead back to base and get released at 6:45pm. (got to sleep in my own bed that night!)
Day 3: Show at 7:15pm, deadhead 1 leg, sit for an hour and then fly 1 leg and get released at 12am.
Day 4: Show at 12:30pm, fly 4 legs and get released at 9:30pm
Day 5: Show at 7am, fly 2 legs and get released at 12:30pm.

So, day 1 I woke up at 4am and went to bed at 9pm. Day 2 I woke up at 4am and went to bed at 11pm (so I'd be "rested" the following evening). Day 3 woke up at 5am (because I'd been getting up at 4am the last few days) kind of slept until 7:30 when I got up for good and then went to bed at 1:15am. Day 4 woke up at 6am and was able to go back to sleep until 8am. We were delayed on the last flight and didn't get in until 10:30. Went to bed at 11:15 and then got up at 6am.

Long duty days suck, but flipping sleep patterns is even worse.
 
Flipping sleep patterns sucks monkey butt.

I do not miss flying in the morning, then sitting around the airport for 4 hours, flying a few more legs to have a 9 hour layover.

One of the reasons why I'm reluctant to upgrade to domestic captain.
 
Doug Taylor said:
Flipping sleep patterns sucks monkey butt.

I do not miss flying in the morning, then sitting around the airport for 4 hours, flying a few more legs to have a 9 hour layover.

One of the reasons why I'm reluctant to upgrade to domestic captain.
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I'm with ya man.

Flipping sleep patterns does not do anyone any good.

On the bright side, the proposed workrules will take care of sitting around the airport for 4 hours as the airlines will be forced to put together more efficient lines.

Joe
 
Here in New Zealand I think we have it pretty much right. Max duty day is 11 hours which can be extended to 12 with a disrupt. Min rest in between shifts is 10 hours. This is rest, 10 hours starts when you arrive at the hotel and stops when you get in the taxi back to the airport. If you have a sit of more than 4 hours you get a hotel.

I can't believe what some of you guys are expected to do in the states!
 
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