PNCL pilots are our brothers! Unity?

[kellwolf]

To everyone saying "The Pinnacle proposal was a staple job" or "Pinnacle just got called out on their BS" please send a copy of said proposal to kellwolf@gmail.com as I haven't read it yet. I you've got the other three, I'd like to read those, too.

If it makes anyone feel better, we got a "Prepare to be screwed" e-mail from our MEC last week...

 

[blee256]

I don't think you have to worry about any one taking you to Vegas any time soon. BTW what direction does the sun come up in your world?

I dont think its that ridiculous if u think about it. For face value, then yes it is. But keep in mind the relative seniority that colgan is asking for is a huge windfalll for their junior pilot group. The DOH that mesaba wants would kill our senior guys. So what else is there? U have to realize that our merger committe reps represent their own pilot group and their pilot group only. I have no problem with my reps asking for that. Will we get it? Highly doubt it. But if they asked for anying less they would have failed us.

 

[ajf005]

I dont think its that ridiculous if u think about it. For face value, then yes it is. But keep in mind the relative seniority that colgan is asking for is a huge windfalll for their junior pilot group. The DOH that mesaba wants would kill our senior guys. So what else is there? U have to realize that our merger committe reps represent their own pilot group and their pilot group only. I have no problem with my reps asking for that. Will we get it? Highly doubt it. But if they asked for anying less they would have failed us.

Well my MEC proposed a staple to the DAL list with the understanding we would fly Pinnacle Corp. planes until it was our turn for class Just because your MEC has your best interests in mind, doesnt mean their proposal is realistic.

 

[Polar742]

I dont think its that ridiculous if u think about it. For face value, then yes it is. But keep in mind the relative seniority that colgan is asking for is a huge windfalll for their junior pilot group. The DOH that mesaba wants would kill our senior guys. So what else is there? U have to realize that our merger committe reps represent their own pilot group and their pilot group only. I have no problem with my reps asking for that. Will we get it? Highly doubt it. But if they asked for anying less they would have failed us.

How does relative seniority represent a windfall?

 

[WalterSobchak]

I dont think its that ridiculous if u think about it. For face value, then yes it is. But keep in mind the relative seniority that colgan is asking for is a huge windfalll for their junior pilot group.

I agree. If the most senior guy a 9L is a 99 guy then he shouldnt be put with Mesaba's 82-88 hires. There is no reasonable expectation of that. Maybe put him at roughly at number 350 or so and work some percent from there taking into account DOH.

The DOH that mesaba wants would kill our senior guys. So what else is there?

Considering how the fleets and the pilot groups line up the DOH would be more fair than you think, but its not perfect either.

A combination of the two is the best way to do it. The top 26 should be mesaba considering express I was not yet invented. Then they could break it down every 200 pilots and analyze it block by block.

However PA28Crasher essentially thinks that current seniority means nothing according to his bizarre logic. He just wants it arranged by what aircraft you are on. I'm venturing a guess he went to JetU and believes the add with the 172, Beech 1900, and CRJ with the caption telling you how AWSOME being a JET FO is. CRJ FO #1 irate:!!!!!!!!

 

[jynxyjoe]

How does relative seniority represent a windfall?

For the top half of the list Colgan pilots would strange mixture of 2:1 3:1 all the way up to 6:1. The bottom half of the list would start at a 2:1 and then work down to a 6:1 in some cases, then back down to a 3:1. Excel is fun. Of course I may be doing that wrong, I assume if I say 2:1 that would mean 2 years for every one, or 6 years for every one.

Mesaba brought the highest paying aircraft and a contract that we are all on now, except for some concessions to Pinnacle and Colgan for their own desires that they wanted on the list. Since Mesaba pilots on the top half of the list have received nothing of substance so far except for the one contract one list. Quite frankly it's irrelevant to many of us, since our scope would have simply pushed our existing contract rates onto Colgan anyhow, nuy I think Pinnacle would have whipsawed Pinnacle and Mesaba.

I hope I'm not rambling, these all seem like relevant points, I suppose the real question is, did I answer your question?

 

[jynxyjoe]

I agree. If the most senior guy a 9L is a 99 guy then he shouldnt be put with Mesaba's 82-88 hires. There is no reasonable expectation of that. Maybe put him at roughly at number 350 or so and work some percent from there taking into account DOH.


Considering how the fleets and the pilot groups line up the DOH would be more fair than you think, but its not perfect either.

A combination of the two is the best way to do it. The top 26 should be mesaba considering express I was not yet invented. Then they could break it down every 200 pilots and analyze it block by block.

However PA28Crasher essentially thinks that current seniority means nothing according to his bizarre logic. He just wants it arranged by what aircraft you are on. I'm venturing a guess he went to JetU and believes the add with the 172, Beech 1900, and CRJ with the caption telling you how AWSOME being a JET FO is. CRJ FO #1 irate:!!!!!!!!

Being paid less than one of those nasty T-prop guys... oops.

 

[Polar742]

For the top half of the list Colgan pilots would strange mixture of 2:1 3:1 all the way up to 6:1. The bottom half of the list would start at a 2:1 and then work down to a 6:1 in some cases, then back down to a 3:1. Excel is fun. Of course I may be doing that wrong, I assume if I say 2:1 that would mean 2 years for every one, or 6 years for every one.

Mesaba brought the highest paying aircraft and a contract that we are all on now, except for some concessions to Pinnacle and Colgan for their own desires that they wanted on the list. Since Mesaba pilots on the top half of the list have received nothing of substance so far except for the one contract one list. Quite frankly it's irrelevant to many of us, since our scope would have simply pushed our existing contract rates onto Colgan anyhow, nuy I think Pinnacle would have whipsawed Pinnacle and Mesaba.

I hope I'm not rambling, these all seem like relevant points, I suppose the real question is, did I answer your question?

I can see where you're coming from. However, from past seniority award arbitrations that I've read (CHQ and S5, DL/NWA, and of course ours) as well as I have been exposed to (AA/TWA and AmWest/US and Piedmont, PSA and Allegheny) Relative Seniority is a concept that plays out, unless one group tries to protect a certain segment of pilots (Airways with the widebody flying).

Where you lose me is how you're having DOH play into relative seniority.

Here's where I'll hedge my bets:

At the top of the list, you'll see a ratio highly favorable of XJ guys vice PNCL. Perhaps even just DOH until the first class of PNCL. Then the next group will be a mix of CAs. This group will probably reflect the various hiring spurts at various airlines, and this will probably be repeated with a fresh start several times, each of which will be a slightly different ratio.

I think the obvious thing is the DOH issue, as we get into the 2000's where some carriers hired and some furloughed and some stagnated. You'll see disparate DOHs, so for example, after his last hiring spurt from, oh, 2007 to Date of Constructive Notice, is where you'll see the most "chaos". For example, and I'm completely making this up, you'll see a 90% PNCL FO with a DOH of 07, a 70% CJC FO with a DOH of 08 and a 95% XJ FO with a DOH of 05. Don't be surprised if the CJC FO is senior followed by PNCL and the XJ guy is last of the three. Then there are spots where the 95% XJ guy is now bidding 80%, the PNCL guy is bidding 90% and the CJC guy is 95%.

The higher up in the list, the more of a chance you'll see a fence or a no-bump/no-flush deal to keep a wholesale hosing. (Which, to answer another question not asked, will prevent the "windfall" when the master list makes folks cry in their beers)

At the end of the day, CherokeeCruiser won't be senior to all the Colgan CAs. Or even the Colgan FOs. Sorry about your luck.

 

[jynxyjoe]

I can see where you're coming from. However, from past seniority award arbitrations that I've read (CHQ and S5, DL/NWA, and of course ours) as well as I have been exposed to (AA/TWA and AmWest/US and Piedmont, PSA and Allegheny) Relative Seniority is a concept that plays out, unless one group tries to protect a certain segment of pilots (Airways with the widebody flying).

Where you lose me is how you're having DOH play into relative seniority.

Here's where I'll hedge my bets:

At the top of the list, you'll see a ratio highly favorable of XJ guys vice PNCL. Perhaps even just DOH until the first class of PNCL. Then the next group will be a mix of CAs. This group will probably reflect the various hiring spurts at various airlines, and this will probably be repeated with a fresh start several times, each of which will be a slightly different ratio.

I think the obvious thing is the DOH issue, as we get into the 2000's where some carriers hired and some furloughed and some stagnated. You'll see disparate DOHs, so for example, after his last hiring spurt from, oh, 2007 to Date of Constructive Notice, is where you'll see the most "chaos".

At the end of the day, CherokeeCruiser won't be senior to all the Colgan CAs. Or even the Colgan FOs. Sorry about your luck.

I can see your point of view, however I think it must be said that you're greatly underestimating the XJ position. Hopefully Bloch will let us have, or maybe I can get the 30 pager of our position on DOH which came complete with Cliffnotes, footnotes and citations. DOH is the lesser of two weevils in this case (opinion), and there's 30 pages describing why. Maybe we can roll you over to our camp . If not, a pox on you! (or not).

after his last hiring spurt from, oh, 2007 to Date of Constructive Notice, is where you'll see the most "chaos".

Hey easy there, I was a XJ '07 hire! I understood months back I was going to get screwed and there was no way around it. I should have come to XJ faster and never even sniffed around Colgan. O well, won't be my last mistake. Everyone after '07, XJ/PCL/CJC should understand a reality that exists, we're a part of a 3000 pilot group now and its never easy being junior.

 

[Polar742]

I am absolutely positive that each Merger committee put their best foot forward in this discussion. Perhaps I'm looking backwards through the previous seniority integrations and my brain cherry picked out stuff.

Then again, I think of the guy I met that was flying for TWA. He got hired by Ozark in 1978. After the SLI, he had a DOH equivalent to 1996.

I think of our own list where a ratio allowed, at times of a DOH of a year earlier for a great majority of the list.

It's always interesting from the sidelines (at least not near as stressful) when these arbitrations come out.

I have also been known to be 100% wrong, or 180 degrees off course....

 

[jynxyjoe]

I am absolutely positive that each Merger committee put their best foot forward in this discussion. Perhaps I'm looking backwards through the previous seniority integrations and my brain cherry picked out stuff.

Then again, I think of the guy I met that was flying for TWA. He got hired by Ozark in 1978. After the SLI, he had a DOH equivalent to 1996.

I think of our own list where a ratio allowed, at times of a DOH of a year earlier for a great majority of the list.

It's always interesting from the sidelines (at least not near as stressful) when these arbitrations come out.

I have also been known to be 100% wrong, or 180 degrees off course....

Well I don't think of you as being wrong very often. I do think in this case, after hearing all sides in their entirety, your conclusion will be similar to mine. Let's face it, DOH doesn't help me out a bit (drop down some 10% on the new list) and some of the Pinnacle and Colgan suggestions would help me out more. Although I do like the Colgan idea of "Look we are such a small group, you won't even notice as I leapfrog 8 years up the list, thanks for that payraise too, I promise to buy every FO their first beer!". Guys like me are very few and far between in the list, just put me up around the 13 year guys, I deserve it!

 

[Polar742]

Well I don't think of you as being wrong very often. I do think in this case, after hearing all sides in their entirety, your conclusion will be similar to mine. Let's face it, DOH doesn't help me out a bit (drop down some 10% on the new list) and some of the Pinnacle and Colgan suggestions would help me out more. Although I do like the Colgan idea of "Look we are such a small group, you won't even notice as I leapfrog 8 years up the list, thanks for that payraise too, I promise to buy every FO their first beer!". Guys like me are very few and far between in the list, just put me up around the 13 year guys, I deserve it!

Oh, I think there is a very compelling story for DOH in parts of the list. I also think there is a very strong case for ratio in other parts of the list. And, I think that there is a very good narrative to define fences by status (much like grandfathering the XJ SAAB pilots on pay).

As much as it would harm a very senior XJ captain to be placed junior a FO, it would be just as harmful to the certain CJC CAs to be whitewashed in DOH. While the job is similar, and now the "Career Expecations" can reasonably defined with a combined CBA, it will be a most interesting read when the document is issued.

But, while we're at it, why not put you around the 20 year guys? I mean, it's so easy to fly a monkey with a pizza cutter can do it!

 

[jynxyjoe]

Oh, I think there is a very compelling story for DOH in parts of the list. I also think there is a very strong case for ratio in other parts of the list. And, I think that there is a very good narrative to define fences by status (much like grandfathering the XJ SAAB pilots on pay).

As much as it would harm a very senior XJ captain to be placed junior a FO, it would be just as harmful to the certain CJC CAs to be whitewashed in DOH. While the job is similar, and now the "Career Expecations" can reasonably defined with a combined CBA, it will be a most interesting read when the document is issued.

But, while we're at it, why not put you around the 20 year guys? I mean, it's so easy to fly a monkey with a pizza cutter can do it!

Because I'm not greedy, I just want whats mine!

Anyway, I don't like it, but I'm going to have to disagree with you. Editing my previous comments : Something very unfeeling and jerkish of me to say about the people getting "whitewashed" that shouldn't be repeated by me again.

 

[Polar742]

Edit : Something very unfeeling and jerkish of me to say.

Well, to be completely honest, until about 2003 and the money got "livable", most commuters were that way. Don't forget, as well, you played the game.

The guys at Colgan now took a stand to improve the conditions. They were trying to make a positive change to keep it from being a career "touch-n-go". The airline is growing up, just about 10 years after the others did. Who knows who else will be in this wave?

I will give you as much as Mesaba was one of the few exceptions of "in-out-and-up"

 

[jynxyjoe]

Well, to be completely honest, until about 2003 and the money got "livable", most commuters were that way. Don't forget, as well, you played the game.

The guys at Colgan now took a stand to improve the conditions. They were trying to make a positive change to keep it from being a career "touch-n-go". The airline is growing up, just about 10 years after the others did. Who knows who else will be in this wave?

I will give you as much as Mesaba was one of the few exceptions of "in-out-and-up"

To be clear my comments were not to you it was at any CJC CA who would feel wronged by DOH. I don't mind repeating them in a PM to anyone but saying it in a thread doesn't do much to help the living room format of jetcareers.

As far as playing the game, I did, and after this SLI I will be punished for playing the game. I left Colgan and went to Mesaba, I did what any union rep would beg a non union whipsaw employee to do, vote with your feet and goto a union company with a contract. In exchange I'll have some people who were junior to me now senior to me. Very few hard feelings at my lot.

As far as guys taking a stand at Colgan, lets not rewrite history. I was there when the first vote failed.

"I will give you as much as Mesaba was one of the few exceptions of "in-out-and-up"" No idea what that means can you say it another way?

 

[Polar742]

To be clear my comments were not to you it was at any CJC CA who would feel wronged by DOH. I don't mind repeating them in a PM to anyone but saying it in a thread doesn't do much to help the living room format of jetcareers.

I understand that. However, to the same, an equally rational and logical argument can be applied to those that feel wronged by a ratio.

As far as playing the game, I did, and after this SLI I will be punished for playing the game. I left Colgan and went to Mesaba, I did what any union rep would beg a non union whipsaw employee to do, vote with your feet and goto a union company with a contract. In exchange I'll have some people who were junior to me now senior to me. Very few hard feelings at my lot.

I understand, but as with any move in the airlines it's a roll of the dice. We all know anyone, at any time, can get bought or go out of business.

As far as guys taking a stand at Colgan, lets not rewrite history. I was there when the first vote failed.

Yes, the first vote failed. However, instead of rolling over and giving up, they group strengthened their resolve and it succeeded on a subsequent attempt. That takes dedication and conviction to fail, get back up and move forward.

"I will give you as much as Mesaba was one of the few exceptions of "in-out-and-up"" No idea what that means can you say it another way?

Mesaba wasn't an airline you could only tolerate to work at for a year or two. If you got "stuck" there, you could do just fine, as your pilots with hire dates in the 80s attest to.

:beer:

Anyway, if we agreed the discussion wouldn't be nearly as entertaining. In the end, we'll probably disagree, yet it has been kept civil on the innerweb. We should hurl insults or something to make it more internet-appropriate.

 

[jynxyjoe]

I understand that. However, to the same, an equally rational and logical argument can be applied to those that feel wronged by a ratio.



I understand, but as with any move in the airlines it's a roll of the dice. We all know anyone, at any time, can get bought or go out of business.



Yes, the first vote failed. However, instead of rolling over and giving up, they group strengthened their resolve and it succeeded on a subsequent attempt. That takes dedication and conviction to fail, get back up and move forward.



Mesaba wasn't an airline you could only tolerate to work at for a year or two. If you got "stuck" there, you could do just fine, as your pilots with hire dates in the 80s attest to.

:beer:

Anyway, if we agreed the discussion wouldn't be nearly as entertaining. In the end, we'll probably disagree, yet it has been kept civil on the innerweb. We should hurl insults or something to make it more internet-appropriate.

You are a Nazi and Hitler would be proud. Also, oversquared and your dangerous (spelled on purpose).

There I feel better as well. I see you PM'ed me, brb.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Jezus, I love it when you Colgan guys talk about a DOH being a screw-job for ya'll. Really?! Your most junior Captain upgrade is down to a 2010 DOH. Imagine the horror if a Colgan FO has to wait more than 12 months for an upgrade. You're crazy if you think it is legit for a 2-year Colgan guy to jump up to the equivalent of a 5 year XJ/PNCL guy. Your new CAs have seen just one winter, one summer and are already sitting left seat making "command" decisions. Meanwhile, 4-6+ year FOs at both XJ and 9E have not upgraded due to no fault of their own. I'll say it again: DOH credits you for TIME spent at YOUR airline in THIS industry. YOUR 18 MONTHS at Colgan do NOT deserve for you to get 4 to 5 YEARS equivalent at XJ or 9E.

The underlying tone of the start of this thread was that Pinnacle merger committee wants Colgan screwed and that there is no unity. That is NOT the case. The PNCL method was the *same* one (category/class) that has been used in recent arbitrator cases. When Pinnacle proposed that category/class method, they did so without any emotion. Breaking it down by equipment and position with no regard to airline. Mesaba proposing a straight-up DOH method is kinda silly, since no arbitration case has ever gone to 100% DOH for the past decade. Similarly, Colgan, IMO, proposed the biggest crap by straight-up relative integration, ensuring their low-time-spent-in-industry got years and years ahead of XJ and 9E. *At least* the Pinnacle method was realistic, from an arbitration award standpoint. Instead of pointing fingers and crying at Pinnacle, Colgan should look into past historical binding arbitration awards for senority, and look at category/class and how it applied.

 

[sherpa]

To everyone saying "The Pinnacle proposal was a staple job" or "Pinnacle just got called out on their BS" please send a copy of said proposal to kellwolf@gmail.com as I haven't read it yet. I you've got the other three, I'd like to read those, too.

If it makes anyone feel better, we got a "Prepare to be screwed" e-mail from our MEC last week...

Was it a "prepared to be screwed letter" or "your number will grow exponentially" letter. ie, if my number was 100 at colgan, even in a relative scenario my new number would be about 600 though my relative spot would be the same...

 

[sherpa]

Jezus, I love it when you Colgan guys talk about a DOH being a screw-job for ya'll. Really?! Your most junior Captain upgrade is down to a 2010 DOH. Imagine the horror if a Colgan FO has to wait more than 12 months for an upgrade. You're crazy if you think it is legit for a 2-year Colgan guy to jump up to the equivalent of a 5 year XJ/PNCL guy. Your new CAs have seen just one winter, one summer and are already sitting left seat making "command" decisions. Meanwhile, 4-6+ year FOs at both XJ and 9E have not upgraded due to no fault of their own. I'll say it again: DOH credits you for TIME spent at YOUR airline in THIS industry. YOUR 18 MONTHS at Colgan do NOT deserve for you to get 4 to 5 YEARS equivalent at XJ or 9E.

The underlying tone of the start of this thread was that Pinnacle merger committee wants Colgan screwed and that there is no unity. That is NOT the case. The PNCL method was the *same* one (category/class) that has been used in recent arbitrator cases. When Pinnacle proposed that category/class method, they did so without any emotion. Breaking it down by equipment and position with no regard to airline. Mesaba proposing a straight-up DOH method is kinda silly, since no arbitration case has ever gone to 100% DOH for the past decade. Similarly, Colgan, IMO, proposed the biggest crap by straight-up relative integration, ensuring their low-time-spent-in-industry got years and years ahead of XJ and 9E. *At least* the Pinnacle method was realistic, from an arbitration award standpoint. Instead of pointing fingers and crying at Pinnacle, Colgan should look into past historical binding arbitration awards for senority, and look at category/class and how it applied.

I guess we'll have to see which was "realistic" on friday then...