PNCL pilots are our brothers! Unity?

[Cruise]

Okay, so the Colgan merger committee thought that all the Pinnacle pilots and some XJ guys in the top two "buckets" would be too much of a windfall. I agree. HOWEVER, the counter proposal they put forth is almost as much of a windfall for Colgan. Based on a "ratio" merger method, you'd have a mid-2010 hire from Colgan potentially a good deal senior to 2008 and 2009 hires at 9E and XJ. It's almost a case of the pot calling the kettle black to me. If they had put forth something fair (like a hybrid suggestion), I'd be a little less critical. XJ did the same thing, but people aren't blasting them like they are 9E. DOH is an EXTREME win for the XJ pilots. Our #1 guy at 9E would be somewhere in the 15-20 range. It gets worse from there. Maybe it's just because the bold part in the original post is aimed at 9E, and that's what most people are reading.

The only thing that's true right now is we're all gonna be pissed off in some way, shape, form or fashion. I'm not so sure it's "venom" as much as it's EACH merger committee looking out for their own pilots. If the Colgan guys put forth something that would have been massively beneficial to the other two groups, they'd have been hounded every time they walked into the crew rooms. I'm glad I'm not on the merger commitee. It's a lose-lose. You get yelled at by groups of your own pilots if you're not tough enough, and you get yelled at by the pilots from the other groups if you're seen as being too un-fair.

And, yes, this is the first any of us have heard about the stance of the merger committees. They "went dark" during negotiations and have stayed that way. It was planned to not hear anything until after the award for this EXACT reason....discord between the groups. Do we need to bring up how we were "stabbed in the back" by the Colgan and Mesaba groups over the whole picketting thing?NOW we want unity....got it.

Wrong! So wrong! There was no "stabbing in the back;" rather level-headed decision making on the MSA/CJC front. PCL wanted to picket and the majority of our collective MEC members felt it was a bad idea. So, your MEC went out on their own. So be it. I certainly didn't agree with that decision and, to this day, I don't see a benefit from the picketing. Your MEC did their thing and hopefully that decision worked for you (figurative you.....not you individually). However, if you want to split hairs, doesn't the majority rule??? Your MEC went out on their own, against the majority. So who was stabbing whom in the back?

At no point did MSA/CJC MEC's "stab you in the back".....that's just nonsense at it's finest. We all had a common goal.....achieve the best JCBA we could collectively. I think that was accomplished. I know I've been more than satisfied with the outcome, as have many other Pinacolaba pilots I've talked to since the JCBA went live. Mission accomplished so far!

 

[MikeD]

PNCL: :soapbox:

Mesaba: :guns:

CJC: :wtf?:

The rest of us: op:

And the Mod staff, with the Admin leading:

 

[Cruise]

See, I disagree. We'd already been in negotiations for 5+ years with the same guys at the table from the company. It was deja vu, and we could easily seeing it turn into a stall tactic. Can you really blame us for switching into "Great, here we go again" mode? CJC and XJ said it would "hurt" negotiations, but we don't know if it helped. We do know the company pleaded with us NOT to do it because Delta hates bad press. We said "Fine....negotiate fairly and we'll cancel it." There was no movement in negotiations, we picketed, things didn't grind to a halt. XJ and CJC seemed like they were trying to convince everyone if we all picketed, the company would pull out of negotiations while saying "They NEED this contract." Well, it's either one or the other, not both. If they NEEDED the negotiations, they wouldn't pull out. I was under the impression that the CJC guys were on board, until XJ's MEC started talking them into not supporting us. Then they turned into the kid on the playground being influenced by the older kids. Did the picketing help? Who knows? Did it hurt? Obviously not. For the record, once the company DID start making strides our direction at the table, we canceled the remaining picketing events.

Nope, the CJC MEC was never on board w/ the picketing, to my knowledge. And we certainly weren't influenced by the MSA MEC one way or another. We made our own decision based on information we had at the time. That being said, I'm glad to see we were able to come together in the end and achieve our common goal: securing a JCBA that has benefited all of us.

As for the "crap sandwich" spin the 9E merger committee is supposedly putting on this, I still think Delta/NWA was a category/class merger. No one is calling that a "staple job" because of their similar equipment. I haven't seen the 9E merger committee proposal. Neither has anyone else on this board. It just says "a few Mesaba pilots" in the first two buckets. How many is a "few?" Bet they're all -900 guys, too.....which would fit with a category/class merger. I'd bet the XJ Saab pilots are pretty close to the Colgan Saab pilots. Once again, I don't know. I haven't seen the proposal.

My main beef is a pilot group calling for unity when their own merger committee really had no aim other than "We tried, but the other two guys are being mean" in sending out this memo. What good does it do other than attempt to make them look better in the eyes of their own pilot group by pointing a finger at the other two groups? If they had waited until AFTER the award to send this out, we wouldn't even be HAVING this discussion. IMO, it's hypocritical to call for "unity" with this. Are we gonna start arguing over Mesaba's Saab rates again, too?

I think the decision to publish the information was made in the interest of "full disclosure." Now that this SLI is out of the hands of any merger committee, the information can be shared. There is no harm, only facts. All three groups positions are out there for discussion/ scrutiny. Does it help anything? Meh, maybe???

One thing is certain.....it just doesn't matter. The list will be determined by one person: Mr. Bloch. We can complain all we want, vehemently demand their position be respected; in the end, the list will still be what ever Mr. Bloch decides. So, does any of this really matter? Nope. I, like every other pilot at our company, will show up for work the day after the list is published and we'll sign the release or fill out the loadsheet or complete the walk around and carry on as a single pilot group.

 

[Baradium]

I totally understand what you mean. I think DOH is a reasonable proposal, though I would stand to lose a lot of my present quality of life and bidding power, I can see the argument that the pendulum would swing wildly the other direction if straight relative seniority was implemented. Right now, I hold weekends off in the Q. With DOH I would likely be holding a reserve line with weekdays off eventually. I feel that the arguments against relative seniority assume that our aircraft and operation are lesser than the others, which I completely disagree with. If all operations were considered equal then, why would relative seem unfair?

The point is, XJ and CJC were both, arguably, reasonable in their proposals and will play well together when this thing is all done. What the PNCL merger committee proposed was out there to say the least. Sounds like they also wanted to staple most of Mesaba's pilots below them as well. It's bad blood and its right there in your face. I have a hard time believing that there wasn't some "direction" givin to the committee before negotiations by their MEC officers to push for this either. I don't think they acted completely alone here. I hope this isn't a sign of things to come!

The possible outcome is not what is alarming about PNCL's position to me as much as the sentiment behind it. I am 99% sure Mr. Bloch sees that their proposal is mostly venom, anger and hatred while lacking much logic, reason and goodwill. The final list will not be a staple and I am sure will be arguably fair.

What alarms me is the underlying ill will toward their future peers. I hope that the future leaders of the combined union will not be of that vane.

If you look at the NWA/DL merger, a status and category method is exactly what THAT integration involved. What you should be focusing on more is whether you think Q400 CA should be considered "less desirable" than Jet F/O.

Please calm down and consider that some big mergers have used the method that the 9E committee proposed, so just calling it "venom and hatred" isn't really all that accurate. Trying to decry a fairly regularly used method as "hatred" is just putting out excuses. status and category integrations are "supposed" to be the "most fair" becuase that's the only way to keep everyone bidding with similiar ability. You integrate based on where people want to be so that once it's all said an done you end up in the same relative seniority in equipment and seat.

A straight relative seniority in this case screws over pinnacle and mesaba pilots becuase now the colgan pilots can bid over to the jet and with relative seniority you can expect most pinnacle pilots to lose seniority in their category and seat. And don't tell me that colgan guys don't want that, I've talked to a few that were just drooling about bidding over to the jet, especially if they got relative seniority and could come in the middle or top of a CA list.

Wrong! So wrong! There was no "stabbing in the back;" rather level-headed decision making on the MSA/CJC front. PCL wanted to picket and the majority of our collective MEC members felt it was a bad idea. So, your MEC went out on their own. So be it. I certainly didn't agree with that decision and, to this day, I don't see a benefit from the picketing. Your MEC did their thing and hopefully that decision worked for you (figurative you.....not you individually). However, if you want to split hairs, doesn't the majority rule??? Your MEC went out on their own, against the majority. So who was stabbing whom in the back?

At no point did MSA/CJC MEC's "stab you in the back".....that's just nonsense at it's finest. We all had a common goal.....achieve the best JCBA we could collectively. I think that was accomplished. I know I've been more than satisfied with the outcome, as have many other Pinacolaba pilots I've talked to since the JCBA went live. Mission accomplished so far!

That's funny. Friend of mine at MSA had told me he got an e-mail about supporting picketing and then after it was announced got an instruction to NOT participate. Colgan didn't make that decision until well after it was announced.


My biggest concern about all of this is animosity being built up. I really don't want to worry about where whoever I'm flying with came from becuase he might be pissed off if he thinks he came out worse than he should have.

 

[ajdwings]

Can't we just settle the entire thing with sticks and rocks? Last guy standing is number one and so on down the line. Survival of the fittest! Probably how they handled seniority list integration issues back in the cave man days. As a group we really haven't evolved much from that anyhow. Some still have the back hair to prove it

 

[Cruise]

If you look at the NWA/DL merger, a status and category method is exactly what THAT integration involved. What you should be focusing on more is whether you think Q400 CA should be considered "less desirable" than Jet F/O.

Please calm down and consider that some big mergers have used the method that the 9E committee proposed, so just calling it "venom and hatred" isn't really all that accurate. Trying to decry a fairly regularly used method as "hatred" is just putting out excuses. status and category integrations are "supposed" to be the "most fair" becuase that's the only way to keep everyone bidding with similiar ability. You integrate based on where people want to be so that once it's all said an done you end up in the same relative seniority in equipment and seat.

A straight relative seniority in this case screws over pinnacle and mesaba pilots becuase now the colgan pilots can bid over to the jet and with relative seniority you can expect most pinnacle pilots to lose seniority in their category and seat. And don't tell me that colgan guys don't want that, I've talked to a few that were just drooling about bidding over to the jet, especially if they got relative seniority and could come in the middle or top of a CA list.



That's funny. Friend of mine at MSA had told me he got an e-mail about supporting picketing and then after it was announced got an instruction to NOT participate. Colgan didn't make that decision until well after it was announced.


My biggest concern about all of this is animosity being built up. I really don't want to worry about where whoever I'm flying with came from becuase he might be pissed off if he thinks he came out worse than he should have.

Ok, your friend must have better information than I do.


Like I said, none of this SLI stuff really matters. When the list is announced, we'll all get to move forward as one group.....TIME TO GET USED TO THAT IDEA NOW.....AS IT WILL MAKE YOUR LIFE EASIER LATER. None of us have any control over the outcome. So smile and go to work, in the same seat you had last week and the same one you're gonna have next week.

 

[CEWLGUY]

See, I disagree. We'd already been in negotiations for 5+ years with the same guys at the table from the company. It was deja vu, and we could easily seeing it turn into a stall tactic. Can you really blame us for switching into "Great, here we go again" mode? CJC and XJ said it would "hurt" negotiations, but we don't know if it helped. We do know the company pleaded with us NOT to do it because Delta hates bad press. We said "Fine....negotiate fairly and we'll cancel it." There was no movement in negotiations, we picketed, things didn't grind to a halt. XJ and CJC seemed like they were trying to convince everyone if we all picketed, the company would pull out of negotiations while saying "They NEED this contract." Well, it's either one or the other, not both. If they NEEDED the negotiations, they wouldn't pull out. I was under the impression that the CJC guys were on board, until XJ's MEC started talking them into not supporting us. Then they turned into the kid on the playground being influenced by the older kids. Did the picketing help? Who knows? Did it hurt? Obviously not. For the record, once the company DID start making strides our direction at the table, we canceled the remaining picketing events.

As for the "crap sandwich" spin the 9E merger committee is supposedly putting on this, I still think Delta/NWA was a category/class merger. No one is calling that a "staple job" because of their similar equipment. I haven't seen the 9E merger committee proposal. Neither has anyone else on this board. It just says "a few Mesaba pilots" in the first two buckets. How many is a "few?" Bet they're all -900 guys, too.....which would fit with a category/class merger. I'd bet the XJ Saab pilots are pretty close to the Colgan Saab pilots. Once again, I don't know. I haven't seen the proposal.

My main beef is a pilot group calling for unity when their own merger committee really had no aim other than "We tried, but the other two guys are being mean" in sending out this memo. What good does it do other than attempt to make them look better in the eyes of their own pilot group by pointing a finger at the other two groups? If they had waited until AFTER the award to send this out, we wouldn't even be HAVING this discussion. IMO, it's hypocritical to call for "unity" with this. Are we gonna start arguing over Mesaba's Saab rates again, too?

You were under the impression? The impression I got from my Rep was that CJC and XJ MECs were rolling their eyes and looking to the sky for the strenth to quell 9Es tirade. Then again, I am under the impression that some 9E guys think that their solo picket event was a catalyst for negotiations, rather than the potential derailment most others perceived it as. Luckily, the cooler-headed MECs decided to stay at the table and continue closing sections.

Impressions are always up for interpretations I guess? :tmyk:

 

[USMC-SSGT]

A straight relative seniority in this case screws over pinnacle and mesaba pilots becuase now the colgan pilots can bid over to the jet and with relative seniority you can expect most pinnacle pilots to lose seniority in their category and seat. And don't tell me that colgan guys don't want that, I've talked to a few that were just drooling about bidding over to the jet, especially if they got relative seniority and could come in the middle or top of a CA list.

"They want to TAKE R' JETS!"

What you should be focusing on more is whether you think Q400 CA should be considered "less desirable" than Jet F/O.

Very true because we are comparing the Q-400 to super premium widebody RJ flying.

 

[sherpa]

If you look at the NWA/DL merger, a status and category method is exactly what THAT integration involved. What you should be focusing on more is whether you think Q400 CA should be considered "less desirable" than Jet F/O.

Please calm down and consider that some big mergers have used the method that the 9E committee proposed, so just calling it "venom and hatred" isn't really all that accurate. Trying to decry a fairly regularly used method as "hatred" is just putting out excuses. status and category integrations are "supposed" to be the "most fair" becuase that's the only way to keep everyone bidding with similiar ability. You integrate based on where people want to be so that once it's all said an done you end up in the same relative seniority in equipment and seat.

A straight relative seniority in this case screws over pinnacle and mesaba pilots becuase now the colgan pilots can bid over to the jet and with relative seniority you can expect most pinnacle pilots to lose seniority in their category and seat. And don't tell me that colgan guys don't want that, I've talked to a few that were just drooling about bidding over to the jet, especially if they got relative seniority and could come in the middle or top of a CA list.



That's funny. Friend of mine at MSA had told me he got an e-mail about supporting picketing and then after it was announced got an instruction to NOT participate. Colgan didn't make that decision until well after it was announced.


My biggest concern about all of this is animosity being built up. I really don't want to worry about where whoever I'm flying with came from becuase he might be pissed off if he thinks he came out worse than he should have.

It may have been used but not applied the way Pncl proposes. Their proposal is simply a screw job. Don't try to justify it as anything else. They found a way to spin a legitimate integration method into a world class screw job. Period.

 

[sherpa]

We'll see how "legitimate" that method is considered by Mr. Bloch. I'm sure it will be put away in it's proper place.

If it was purely based on who bids what, then how did they manage to insert most xj pilots below Pncl pilots? They already fly the most desirable equipment and have more if it then Pncl.

Face it, Pncl got called out on their BS.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

We'll see how "legitimate" that method is considered by Mr. Bloch. I'm sure it will be put away in it's proper place.

If it was purely based on who bids what, then how did they manage to insert most xj pilots below Pncl pilots? They already fly the most desirable equipment and have more if it then Pncl.

Face it, Pncl got called out on their BS.

Are you sure any of the crj's are the most desirable? There is only one type right now that is expanding, in a few years pay rates even up, and in relative terms, is very junior right now.

I know what I would rather be on right now if I was a junior crj 200 ca..

 

[higney85]

Stabbed in the back over picketing. I was helping fellow CJC and XJ reps figure out how to list on Fdx and checking DL loads for reps before the rug was yanked. We were even discussing having the Mem lec meetings for 9E and XJ to knock out two birds with one stone.

 

[Hernandezcfi]

Can't we just settle the entire thing with sticks and rocks? Last guy standing is number one and so on down the line. Survival of the fittest! Probably how they handled seniority list integration issues back in the cave man days. As a group we really haven't evolved much from that anyhow. Some still have the back hair to prove it

Flying a jet is so easy, a caveman can do it!

 

[jynxyjoe]

Stabbed in the back over picketing.

This is so stupid and pathetic. Ken, get a hobby you lost this fight a long time ago.

People who did not support the picking:

• MSA MEC
• CJC MEC
• DAL MEC
• ALPA NATION

We were 4 days from a deal.

Ken, reasonable people can disagree, you guys showed a lot of guts (maybe not smarts) going out there and doing your thing with no financial or any other support from national. We will not forget how tough willed you all were. At the end of the day, you have to be wise and tough, and that's what moves us forward as a pilot group.

Example of things that do no not help.

• Revisionist history
• Lying
• Going rogue
• Incorrectly believing that your MEC and pilot group were running the show

It's over Ken, move on. Everyone can call their reps and get the full story, screaming at the rain doesn't do anything productive.

I know people who cancelled dentist appointments they waited 2 months for ready to support you. I know I was on the phone with everyone.

PS. If MSA and CJC stabbed you in the back, so did national and the Delta MEC.

 

[sherpa]

Are you sure any of the crj's are the most desirable? There is only one type right now that is expanding, in a few years pay rates even up, and in relative terms, is very junior right now.

I know what I would rather be on right now if I was a junior crj 200 ca..

I am sure their argument is that the rj 9 is the most desirable followed closely by the cr2.

considering XJ brought the lion's share of 900's which are the future.....

 

[higney85]

And herein lies the problem. We all have differing viewpoints. Joe, you make a valid case for your side of the fence and I'll let the picketing go. But (just like the thread when the issue was in focus) there are differing takes on "facts". In the end we got a JCBA, and I attribute that to a single reason, PNCL Corp's business need. I do not regret my actions or words and know that my guys were onboard. What's done is done, but the politics still unfortunately remain.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Exactly, what's done is done, and it doesn't matter anymore. Pinnacle Corp wants to make some aggressive moves for flying in the future and we want to be compensated. The SLI is coming down the tubes someday here soon, then we have to move over the hurdle of how badly we all got screwed. That'll take another couple months. Six months past that we won't even recognize 1/4 of the names on the seniority list from hiring and attrition. From today and every day forward everyone's goal should be to Fly Safe, Fly The Contract, and watch your damn pay stubs because the company is probably trying to rob you.

 

[v1valarob]

Looks like we'll know on or before the 20th.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

I am sure their argument is that the rj 9 is the most desirable followed closely by the cr2.

considering XJ brought the lion's share of 900's which are the future.....

By what reasoning would you say its more desirable? I think everybody these days say qol, Ewr sucks, but if your junior on the 9 or 2, you won't see any movement, and may face reductions based on the way dal seems to operate. The q has movement, is junior, and is expanding.. so at this moment, if you took a snap shot, a pre 2008 hire, post 2004 hire will. Likely have their best qol ( assuming commuters) in the q.

Heck, I'm loving my 19 day off, 90 hr line. I'd be rsv at 9e still.. so why would I want the crj?

 

[sherpa]

By what reasoning would you say its more desirable? I think everybody these days say qol, Ewr sucks, but if your junior on the 9 or 2, you won't see any movement, and may face reductions based on the way dal seems to operate. The q has movement, is junior, and is expanding.. so at this moment, if you took a snap shot, a pre 2008 hire, post 2004 hire will. Likely have their best qol ( assuming commuters) in the q.

Heck, I'm loving my 19 day off, 90 hr line. I'd be rsv at 9e still.. so why would I want the crj?

I figure their thinking is that cjc is salivating at the opportunity to fly their jets.