US Airways

ATN_Pilot said:
Negative.
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Sorry. I actually value your opinion a lot, but I choose to believe a Harvard-educated employment lawyer (who is herself extremely pro-labor).

If you have evidence to the contrary, I'd really like to hear it.

Who did the SAPA President walk into the SkyWest Inc's shareholders meeting a few weeks ago with?
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I have no clue. Who?
 
zmiller4 said:
Sorry. I actually value your opinion a lot, but I choose to believe a Harvard-educated employment lawyer (who is herself extremely pro-labor).
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I work with about 60 of the best pro-union labor attorneys in the country who are experts on the RLA. They all say the same thing: SkyWest pilots do not have anything even remotely enforceable in a court of law. You are at-will employees.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I work with about 60 of the best pro-union labor attorneys in the country who are experts on the RLA. They all say the same thing: SkyWest pilots do not have anything even remotely enforceable in a court of law. You are at-will employees.
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So a hypothetical...let's say the Skywest policy manual lays out a specific disciplinary process with steps that must be taken for punishment/termination. A CP decides to bypass that and fire someone without taking the prescribed steps. Terminated pilot sues for back pay and their job back. Your assertion would be that there's no way the court would side with the employee?

I honestly don't know the answer, and mean no offense to ALPA legal, but they might be slightly biased on the issue of a non-union airline's "agreement". There's even legal precedent for Skywest's CPM being referred to as a "CBA" by a federal judge.
 
zmiller4 said:
So a hypothetical...let's say the Skywest policy manual lays out a specific disciplinary process with steps that must be taken for punishment/termination. A CP decides to bypass that and fire someone without taking the prescribed steps. Terminated pilot sues for back pay and their job back. Your assertion would be that there's no way the court would side with the employee?
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It really depends on the specific circumstances. But that's not really the question. The question is, can it be changed on a whim? The answer is clearly "yes." If SkyWest management decides tomorrow morning that they want to change the disciplinary procedure in your company manual, they can do so without even speaking to SAPA. That means that you don't have a real contract. When it comes to terminations, lots of other questions come into play, though, so your question doesn't have an easy answer. Even if the company has absolutely no policy, there are still many times when an employee can sue and win damages for a wrongful termination. That has nothing to do with a contract. But what about things other than discipline? You have pay rates in your employee handbook. The company can change them tomorrow, and there isn't a damned thing you or SAPA can do about it. The same goes for your 401k, your medical benefits, your scheduling rules, etc.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I work with about 60 of the best pro-union labor attorneys in the country who are experts on the RLA. They all say the same thing: SkyWest pilots do not have anything even remotely enforceable in a court of law. You are at-will employees.
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If you run into "E.S." from MSP, tell her I said hola and all the best to "G.S." as well :) Old college friends.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I work with about 60 of the best pro-union labor attorneys in the country who are experts on the RLA. They all say the same thing: SkyWest pilots do not have anything even remotely enforceable in a court of law. You are at-will employees.
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There's some case law that is incredibly compelling on the other side of that argument.

I didn't believe it either until I read it.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
It really depends on the specific circumstances. But that's not really the question. The question is, can it be changed on a whim? The answer is clearly "yes."
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So you're saying Skywest can change pay rates and work rules that are clearly spelled out in the policy manual at any time? I'd disagree pretty strongly with that. Have you sat down and read the thing with a lawyer? Things that aren't well-written are certainly subject to "re-interpretation" and benefits that aren't even addressed (health care) can be changed on a whim for sure (there's evidence of this). That being said, I'd say that to "change the language of the policy manual on a whim" would require abolishing SAPA completely. And since SAPA is not a union, there's nothing SAPA could do about that. But as long as SAPA exists, the company cannot change the manual's language without their written consent.

To some degree, you're preaching to the choir. I'm *very* aware of the limitations of not having a union-negociated CBA. But what the Skywest pilots have is not as bad as you're depicting, and it certainly qualifies as a legal document.
 
zmiller4 said:
Sorry. I actually value your opinion a lot, but I choose to believe a Harvard-educated employment lawyer (who is herself extremely pro-labor).
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In all fairness, you could probably find another Harvard educuated employment lawyer that would argue the other way. It's how they get paid. At the end of the day, it's not the lawyers that make the decisions, it's how the judge rules and how well the appeal goes....
 
zmiller4 said:
So you're saying Skywest can change pay rates and work rules that are clearly spelled out in the policy manual at any time?
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Yep. It's their policy manual, and you are at-will employees. They can do whatever they want with that policy manual at any given time.

That being said, I'd say that to "change the language of the policy manual on a whim" would require abolishing SAPA completely.
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SAPA isn't a legal entity, and can't enter into contracts on your behalf. Their existence is irrelevant to management's ability to change your terms of employment at their discretion.
 
jtrain609 said:
It's not a bad idea, but requires the company to actually follow the contract.

(If you haven't heard how bad it's gotten, well, it's pretty bad)
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Seriously? I would never know by listening to some of the XJT crews on the bus. I often hear how amazing XJT is and most other regionals are simply awful. Had a crew the other night in BTV on the hotel van that couldn't stop espousing the awesomeness of XJT. I just sat there silently thinking......um, yeah.....

I contend, however, that ALL regionals are awful. Some may be slightly less awful than others.....but we're all in this poop pile together. But hey, the pixie dust that pumps out of the ACM's on the ERJ must be great stuff.




Not busting on you JT......just an observation/ generalization (and we all know how well those work). :p :D
 
Cruise said:
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I contend, however, that ALL regionals are awful. Some may be slightly less awful than others.....but we're all in this poop pile together. But hey, the pixie dust that pumps out of the ACM's on the ERJ must be great stuff.
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Maybe it is great stuff...But the old "All regionals are horrible" argument is perfect for those to justify their poor wages and working conditions.
 
Baronman said:
Maybe it is great stuff...But the old "All regionals are horrible" argument is perfect for those to justify their poor wages and working conditions.
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Look, I've done/ am doing as much as I can to improve my side of our collective poop pile and raise the bar. So far, I think I'm succeeding with the help of my fellow brothers and sisters. So don't think, for one second, I'm justifying the poor conditions/ wages. However, what I am saying is regional airlines, in their current form, have nothing on the mainline partners; so to hear people belittle other carriers because they think theirs is amazing is a bit comical.

None of us should be satisfied w/ where we're at and continue to fight for improved conditions and attempt to achieve parity w/ the mainline carriers. Will it happen? Meh, probably not. Doesn't mean we shouldn't fight like hell to make it happen, though!
 
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