Question concerning solo'ing a student

TexanAviator

New Member
Hey everyone, long time reader, first time poster.

I am a MEII with a quick "right thing to do" question.

I have a student pilot here that has a grass strip by his home that he wants to be able to fly to via solo endorsement. I have only been flying with him twice since he has "skipped around" instructors and I am concerned not only about his skills in the a/c, but also his knowledge. To be brief, he had no clue what the pitot tube was, much less anything else on the a/c. He has a history in 2000 of an unreported incident during solo to an airport in which he ran off the r/w due to a x/wind and imputing no correction for it (one of the things I have noticed during our limited flying).

He is incredibly pushy about getting solo'ed and expressed concern about being "swindled" for me to make money/gain hours. My concern is that during my career, I have NEVER solo'ed any student pilot for continued/multiple flights to a grass strip r/w (one end has power lines) and I am not sure I even feel that I ever would want to. My take is once you get your own ticket, that is up to you.

How would you guys confront this situation?
 
If you are not comfortable with the endorsement, DON'T DO IT! Your gut is telling you something...follow your gut. It's OK to let the student know. You might be out of a student....oh well, better safe than sorry.

Curious... who owns the aircraft he is flying?
 
If you are not comfortable with the endorsement, DON'T DO IT! Your gut is telling you something...follow your gut. It's OK to let the student know. You might be out of a student....oh well, better safe than sorry.

Curious... who owns the aircraft he is flying?

He does. And from what I know at this point, self-insured. :whatever:
 
Times are tough and money is tight, so it might seem like every student is precious and you can't pass up any chance to bill another hour. Trust me, this guy is more trouble than he's worth. I personally would drop him completely.

If' he's been bounced around from various instructors, and hasn't soloed yet, there is a reason. If he can afford his own plane, then he can afford to fly with you until you are confident in his knowledge and skills.


In principle, I would allow a student pilot to fly their own plane to a nearby grass strip under the right conditions.
 
Im sure you already know this but there is a potential for YOU to get in trouble if he ends up in a ditch again. Its not worth your own tickets for what seems like an unappreciative student.
 
I agree with everyone else here, he is more trouble than he is worth. But if you choose to continue to fly with him i would sit him down, go over the FAR's and PTS with him and ask him to self critique himself. Explain what he needs to achieve and ask him for his perception on how he is achieving this. After that you ogive him your critique. And compare the both so that you can see where you stand.
 
Point #1: If this guy is completely self insured, I'd never step foot in his plane again. EVER! It's okay if he wants to assume risk for hull damage, but he needs to have liability and medical coverage. Ask him to bring in his insurance papers for you to review, and then insist he lists you on the policy. You'll also need your own insurance because even if you're a named pilot, it's likely not the same as being the owner. You'll need to talk to his agent (and yours) to find out all the details.

While you're at it, you should review the aircraft logbooks. You need to give him a lesson on them anyhow, so you might as well do it now. The last thing you want to do is have your certificates revoked for flying a plane that isn't airworthy. Chances are his comments about you swindling him is simply an indicator of him being a cheapskate, so I'd expect him to treat his airplane in the same manner.

Now, on to the quandary: Communication is the key here. I had a student like this once -- he was always concerned about how long it was going to take him to solo, he reviewed every lesson on the phone with his uncle afterwords, he constantly compared his flight time to everyone else on the planet, and he always felt like he should be farther ahead of everyone else; when in fact, he was a below average pilot. I finally had to sit him down and spell it out to him, and I recommend you do the same. In fairness, my customer came to me with a certain expectation of what it would take to get his pilot's license, but I didn't do a good job of changing those expectations in a timely manner. His expectations were way off, but there's no way he would know that until I explained it to him. The fact that I wasn't meeting his expectations made him seem pushy and impatient to me.

I recommend you sit your student down and outline your requirements. Make sure he understands that although he owns the airplane, he won't be able to go flying in it anytime he wants; he can only fly the plane solo with your permission. (After I found out my first solo student went flying without telling me about it, I always add "must receive my permission for each solo flight" on his solo endorsement along with other limitations for wind, weather, and currency. I would also tell him why you will not permit him to fly from his local grass strip. One of your responsibilities as a CFI is to provide a safe environment for your students to learn and grow as pilots. I do that by placing very protective limits on them in the beginning, but as they get more experience and skill I relax those limits. For example, I start solo students off with a 7 day currency limit -- if they haven't flown in the previous 7 days they must fly dual for one flight before they can solo again. Normally I'll raise this to 10 days about the time they start solo cross-country phase, and up it to 15 days by the time they are in the test prep phase. (My school also has a limit of 30 day or 10 flight hrs between dual flight for students, otherwise I'd have it too.) My goal is to build a box that is smaller than their skills, so they won't get into a corner where they don't have the skill to get out. When their skills increase, I increase the size of the box. When I explain to each pilot why I do this, most of them appreciate it. It's natural for a student to feel a little restricted (he is restricted), and even to complain about it a little (I remember saying, "Being a student sucks!"); but they should all realize these restrictions are for their own good. The bottom line is they don't have enough experience & skill to be a private pilot yet or they would be one.

I would have a talk with your student before you schedule another lesson. If you lay out your expectations and limitations and he isn't completely supportive, I'd part company with him. If you decide to keep him as a student, make sure you place limitations on his solo endorsement. Otherwise, you could solo him and he can legally fly for the next 89 days on your endorsement without so much as a phone call to you. You can't take back an endorsement once you give it, so make sure you place some controls on it.

One last thing, you should also find out why he left his former instructors. If possible you should talk to them and get their side of the story. Finding an instructor who works well with a student is a natural part of learning any skill. Maybe they just didn't get along or whatever legitimate reason, but maybe he couldn't get his way with them and he set off to find someone weaker. If you find out the latter is the case, you'll then know what your student thinks of you.
 
"If this guy is completely self insured, I'd never step foot in his plane again. EVER!"

Ditto that. Should the student get into an accident, you as the CFI may become liable for damage other than the aircraft. The 40 or so hours you'll log isn't worth the headache.

"You can't take back an endorsement once you give it, so make sure you place some controls on it."

I disagree with this statement. I've voided endorsements in the past due to a student not displaying proper judgement on solo flights (i/e doing things he wasn't supposed to do). As the CFI, you have the ultimate control over what your student can do. If they show defiant behavior after the endorsement, don't hesitate to void it.
 
Thanks for all the responses. I had the chance to speak with his old instructor and it was pretty much the same thing I am telling you guys now. If you ask instructors on the field, they will say they won't fly with the guy. I called him last night and left a message about the insurance and I have not heard back from him and he is not picking up his phone, I am sure he is done with me at this point. This is the type of guy that just does not listen and gets super pissed and defensive when you try and correct him. I corrected him on his light gun signal explanations, for example, and he was throwing a little fit. For a grown man he is pretty juvenile. He does not take instruction, or WANT to take instruction. He wants to jump from point A. to point E. and feels like the information and training between is below him. I am not going to be able to help this guy and I am just wasting my patience and time with it at this point I feel.
 
Thanks for all the responses. I had the chance to speak with his old instructor and it was pretty much the same thing I am telling you guys now. If you ask instructors on the field, they will say they won't fly with the guy. I called him last night and left a message about the insurance and I have not heard back from him and he is not picking up his phone, I am sure he is done with me at this point. This is the type of guy that just does not listen and gets super pissed and defensive when you try and correct him. I corrected him on his light gun signal explanations, for example, and he was throwing a little fit. For a grown man he is pretty juvenile. He does not take instruction, or WANT to take instruction. He wants to jump from point A. to point E. and feels like the information and training between is below him. I am not going to be able to help this guy and I am just wasting my patience and time with it at this point I feel.

Drop him like a hot potato(e).
 
"You can't take back an endorsement once you give it, so make sure you place some controls on it."

I disagree with this statement. I've voided endorsements in the past due to a student not displaying proper judgement on solo flights (i/e doing things he wasn't supposed to do). As the CFI, you have the ultimate control over what your student can do. If they show defiant behavior after the endorsement, don't hesitate to void it.

I should have explained my thought better. If you give a guy a solo endorsement unencumbered with any limitations, he could walk away and fly on that endorsement for 89 more days. If you don't have the opportunity to put your hands on his book again and strike out the endorsement, it's still valid. All you can do is write another statement telling him you are retracting your endorsement, mail it to him via certified mail, and send the FSDO a copy -- but even then it's uncertain if that would actually nullify your solo endorsement. (I'm sure he could find a lawyer somewhere who would argue that since the FARs don't make a provision for nullifying a valid endorsement the letter in meaningless.) I remember a discussion here quite a while ago where someone was facing the same situation. I'm a little fuzzy on the details, but it seems like the end result was all he could do was wait for the 91st day. Because I put that little phrase in my endorsements that say "must have MY permission" I can effectively nullify my endorsement at any moment.

This is all academic, I would also drop the guy like a bad habit.
 
"Because I put that little phrase in my endorsements that say "must have MY permission" I can effectively nullify my endorsement at any moment."

That is a really good idea.

"If you don't have the opportunity to put your hands on his book again and strike out the endorsement, it's still valid."

True. Just one of those things I've never even considered until now!
 
Noticed this post and had to comment. Not going to get into details looks like most of the important stuff has been said. If u haven't already done so get what ever money is owed to u and drop him. I have had experience with 2 students like his and they are a waist of time and not worth the trouble. They have not one certificate or rating yet that try to run the show. As for a student soloing on a grass strip I would never solo a student on a grass strip unless that is the only strip we had. Good luck
 
I think the fact that you're even looking for advice answers your question.

Don't endorse him unless he's safe and proficient. End of story. And if he doesn't like it, tell him to find someone else.
 
Noticed this post and had to comment. Not going to get into details looks like most of the important stuff has been said. If u haven't already done so get what ever money is owed to u and drop him. I have had experience with 2 students like his and they are a waist of time and not worth the trouble. They have not one certificate or rating yet that try to run the show. As for a student soloing on a grass strip I would never solo a student on a grass strip unless that is the only strip we had. Good luck

Two words for you brother: proof read! That way you don't "waist" everyone's time trying to figure out what you mean. ;)
 
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