My current thoughts and options

aviatoralex

aviatoralex

Smartass
Hey guys. As some of you may already know, I have already posted several threads on collegiate aviation, asking questions that are already answered somewhere in the forum. I have been doing a lot of research, and I wanted to hear your opinion on this subject.

Right now, I have in mind some universities that I am visiting this summer, all with great aviation programs and almost all (except ERAU) with tons of majors to choose from. Here's my list, from top to bottom (safety) choice.
1. Purdue
2. University of Oklahoma
3. Ohio State
4. WMU, UND
5. ERAU

With these universities in mind, I have though of four best possible options:
1) Major in Prof. Flight (Which most of you will disagree because of the possibility of being furloughed, losing your medical etc.)
2) Double Major in Prof. Flight and in either Economics, Business Administration or Political Science (Not sure which one yet)
3) Double major in Economics Business or Political Sci. and fly on the FBO
4) Major in one of the subjects mentioned above and fly on the FBO

*If I don't even major in flight the selected universities change


1) With the price tags aside which one of these options would you recommend? If none of these, what would you recommend?



2) Would it be worth it to major in Aviation Management?

3) If I double major in say Economics and Business, would I have enough time to fly on the FBO?


If you read this far, thanks. For now (lol), these are my questions. ANY feedback and answers would be great on my options and questions.

Thanks again.
Alex
 
I'm also in a similar situation so I'm as well curious to see the responses here :). Especially an Aviation Management degree, I wouldn't mind working in the aviation industry but people say that the AvManagement degree is useless.

Hope I didn't thread hijack!
-Mike
 
Option 4:

- Go to a 'regular' college with cheaper tuition than an aviation school.
- Major in something that interests you (and could help with a non-flying career should you need it. Avoid 'aviation' themed Bachelors Degrees)
- No need to double major -- the time and effort isn't worth it (consider your flying training your 2nd major)
- Pay-as-you-go with an FBO.
 
candiddeck said:
I would recommend that you wait and see how public law 111-216 plays out (see section 217 of http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-5900&tab=summary). There has been much talk that some aviation colleges and possibly other large training centers will get some type of "waiver" or academic credit from the 1500 requirement. The final rule on the matter is due in July, so I would hold off making a decision until that time.

Good luck!
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Yes yes thank you thank you thank you!! I have been wondering where to find updates about that because when I talked to some academic advisors I these universities they told me about it.
Thank you SO much!!
 
candiddeck said:
some aviation colleges and possibly other large training centers will get some type of "waiver" or academic credit from the 1500 requirement.
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Or, alternately, you can take the financially smart route and just fly until you get 1500 hours, rather than needing the waiver.
 
But what if aviation management and running airports interests you and running ops interests you? Is an Aviation Management degree still not helpful?
 
1B9Pilot said:
But what if aviation management and running airports interests you and running ops interests you? Is an Aviation Management degree still not helpful?
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Its not that it isn't useful , it's that the you can achieve the same goal with a general Business degree that will be more accepted outside of the aviation community. Business is business, what you need to know about your chosen industry will be learned on the job, not in the classroom. Get a job at an FBO while in college and learn the nuances of the industry then use your degree to get a job in management.
 
Hacker15e said:
Or, alternately, you can take the financially smart route and just fly until you get 1500 hours, rather than needing the waiver.
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The 1500 hours is not the tough part, it's the 500 hours of cross-country time (further defined as no less than 50NM per airports). One of the bigger universities just did a study (UND?) and found that most flight instructors will have to generate about 2500 flight hours to get to the 500 hour cross-country requirement for the ATP.
 
1B9Pilot said:
But what if aviation management and running airports interests you and running ops interests you? Is an Aviation Management degree still not helpful?
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The major advantage of an airport or aviation management degree is that you are set up nicely for an MBA. The MBA requires about 20 or so credits as an undergrad in some cores (accounting, finace, stats, etc.).
 
candiddeck said:
The 1500 hours is not the tough part, it's the 500 hours of cross-country time (further defined as no less than 50NM per airports). One of the bigger universities just did a study (UND?) and found that most flight instructors will have to generate about 2500 flight hours to get to the 500 hour cross-country requirement for the ATP.
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Okay....?

I'm still failing to see where spending more money going to an aviation specialty university and getting an aviation-specific degree, then spending more money per flight hour to get your ratings, all so you can sidestep the ATP requirement to get on at a 121 carrier is a smart plan.

Spend all that money so you can quickly get to a regional job where you'll make crackers (and have all that debt burden on top of it) -- sounds like a great plan, yeah.

There are plenty of other ways to build X-C experience and flight hours outside of CFIing (freight haulers, pipeline patrol, mapping, etc); pilots have been doing that for years. Professional aviation is, and has been, a stepping-stone process. This concept of flight school to RJ right seat is a relatively recent phenomenon, that to some extents USED to make sense in the pre 9/11 world given those pay structures at Major airlines and the amount of time one was likely to spend at a Commuter/Regional airline.

At a time, by the way, when you needed MORE THAN 1500 hours to even be competitive for a job.
 
I am currently an Aviation Management major and see no real difference between it and a regular business degree. The only aviation classes required by my major are the flying classes ie IR, Comm, Multi etc. The rest of the classes are general business, ie Accounting, Economics, Marketing, Finance, etc. The reason I have not switched to just a general business degree is that I want the aircraft ratings because flying is my career goal. The way I see it, the degree can be used in any form of business, not just aviation.
 
Pick the school that you like the best. That's rule number, and major in what you WANT to major in...a close rule number 2. Short of those two things go get he best bang for the buck. Be careful though, a lot of schools advertise a lot of bang and really all you are doing is losing bucks.

You mentioned OU, so that means you have looked in Oklahoma. I'm not saying my school is the best or better than OU, but I do think we are a different environment than OU that should be worth looking into. Our program is a very few frills one, but our training is top notch. College life will be different here then in norman and that can either be a good thing or bad depending on your mindset. Check us out.

aviation.se.edu
 
Hacker15e said:
Okay....?

I'm still failing to see where spending more money going to an aviation specialty university and getting an aviation-specific degree, then spending more money per flight hour to get your ratings, all so you can sidestep the ATP requirement to get on at a 121 carrier is a smart plan.
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I used to give this same exact advice: Don't get a degree in aviation from an aviation collge, but get a degree in something you like. Then go to your favorite FBO and get the training. I gave this advice until about 6 months ago when PL 111-216 started. Now, it looks like going to an approved program (read: accredited aviation colleges) will result in some reduction from the 1500 (or actually 2500 as pointed out above) and the 500 cross-country requirement. According to the CAT magazine, that total flight time could be anywhere from 500-800 if you go to one of these schools.

Wrong or right, it may be that in the future the most inexpensive and fastest route to the airlines will be at public, not-for-profit universities (WMU, UND, Oklahoma, etc.).

Hacker15e said:
Spend all that money so you can quickly get to a regional job where you'll make crackers (and have all that debt burden on top of it) -- sounds like a great plan, yeah.
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Either way, the OP will probably start at a regional...I guess it's possible to jump from flight instructing or freight-hauling to the majors; but it is much more likely he would start at a regional. And if so, does he want to do that with 500-800 in his logbook, or 2500+ in it? Not sure how the later works.

I guess we'll find out in a few months what the final rule from the FAA will be...until then, when someone asks me how they should pursue aviation, I always tell them to wait until the final rule is published, or go to a public aviation college, get a non-aviation degree, but train at the school for the academic credit that will be forthcoming under PL 111-216.
 
candiddeck said:
does he want to do that with 500-800 in his logbook, or 2500+ in it?
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More time in your logbook is a GOOD thing, not a bad one. Experience is what gives aviators judgment and airmanship, which is what makes us useful in that little room at the front of the jet.

I still don't see what's the big hurry -- again, the bar for the Commuters/Regionals was even higher than 1500 hours before the '00s, and SOMEHOW people managed to get that experience and move along. Seniority is fine, but it's NOT more important than airmanship/judgment, and it's sure as hell not more important than making smart financial decisions to attain that seniority.

Who cares if you're able to short-cut the future system -- the real question is, AT WHAT COST?

My opinion is that the cost is not worth the "benefit".
 
Thanks for all the answers. I really appreciate it. I just wanted to point out that tuition/flight training will be paid without a student loan, my parents have been saving money from the day I was born. Maybe I can use the money I saved to live a better life, but no matter what I won't need any kind of financial aid. I can afford an aviation university.
So my next question is, if I can afford an aviation University without a student loan, should I go for it, therefore getting to a regional faster, or go to an FBO, instruct for a few more years and then move on to the regionals all while living a better life with extra cash I saved from not going to an aviation university?
 
aviatoralex said:
Thanks for all the answers. I really appreciate it. I just wanted to point out that tuition/flight training will be paid without a student loan, my parents have been saving money from the day I was born. Maybe I can use the money I saved to live a better life, but no matter what I won't need any kind of financial aid. I can afford an aviation university.
So my next question is, if I can afford an aviation University without a student loan, should I go for it, therefore getting to a regional faster, or go to an FBO, instruct for a few more years and then move on to the regionals all while living a better life with extra cash I saved from not going to an aviation university?
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As Hacker has already pointed out, there is no rush. If you have savings, don't squander it all on an aviation degree and overpriced training. Do it as economically as possible so you come out of college with as much of that savings still in your bank account. That way, you can really do whatever you want and not NEED to take the first job that comes along. Keep the power in your hands.

You never know what your goals and desires will be at the end of your college career. Dont tie yourself to one path. Options are a great thing to have. You may want to fly a shiny jet right now, but in 4 years you may want to fly freight, banner tow, do survey work, try to get into crop dusting, fly corporate, join the military or even go do mission work for a year and not touch a jet. Having savings in the bank allows you to make the decision you want, instead of the decision you need to in order to pay the bills.
 
Hacker15e said:
Seniority is fine, but it's NOT more important than airmanship/judgment, and it's sure as hell not more important than making smart financial decisions to attain that seniority.
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I think your sentiment is noble, but the reality is, seniority prevails. Take it from a the guy who missed upgrade by one number and stayed in the right seat of a regional for an extra eight months.

And on that note, the notion that total flight time is a good predictor of airmanship just doesn't hold water. In fact, the regional airlines have had their best success with those pilots from AABI accredited schools with 500-1000 hours. Starting on page 73 (of particular interest is page 83 and the bottom of page 85), see the following: http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org.../programs/academy/journal/pdf/Summer_2010.pdf.

This study has become the blueprint for PL 111-216 and for the new preferential hiring program announced by Delta airlines at the recent WATS/RATS conference in Orlando. See http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/04/20/355820/wats-2011-delta-ponders-pilot-sources.html (short but worthwhile read).
 
candiddeck said:
And on that note, the notion that total flight time is a good predictor of airmanship just doesn't hold water. In fact, the regional airlines have had their best success....
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If you think that success in an airline training program is the same as 'airmanship', then you've missed the boat.
 
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