Charter woes....

mshunter said:
So what your saying is getting to the airport at 6am, hopping on SWA to pick up an aiplane and pax for a 10am departure out of LAS isn't considered duty? Or are you saying that leaving to deadhead home is when duty stops? Because 135.263 (c) seems pretty clear to me.



Seems cut and dry. Am I missing something?
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Yes, a certificate holder is not requiring you to go home nor are they providing you the transportation (jumpseating is not providing.) Its on your own ass if you commute, you can't say that you're time commuting is not rest. If you could they would have outlawed commuting ages ago.

Additionally "his home station" is not wherever you live, it is your base for your company. For example if you are a Q400 CA out of EWR, so long as they end you up in EWR then as far as the company is concerned you're at your home station and at rest. If you CHOOSE to get on a different flight and go to your actual home that is no different from choosing to get on a flight to Boca and hit the beach as far as the company and the FAA is concerned.

For it to be "non-rest" the company has to provide you a ticket, ie a deadhead flight.
 
SpiraMirabilis said:
Yes, a certificate holder is not requiring you to go home nor are they providing you the transportation (jumpseating is not providing.) Its on your own ass if you commute, you can't say that you're time commuting is not rest. If you could they would have outlawed commuting ages ago.

Additionally "his home station" is not wherever you live, it is your base for your company. For example if you are a Q400 CA out of EWR, so long as they end you up in EWR then as far as the company is concerned you're at your home station and at rest. If you CHOOSE to get on a different flight and go to your actual home that is no different from choosing to get on a flight to Boca and hit the beach as far as the company and the FAA is concerned.

For it to be "non-rest" the company has to provide you a ticket, ie a deadhead flight.
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I have a 20 min drive to the hotel that I count as duty time because the company provides the transportation.
 
You shouldn't, as that is local in nature. To be counted as duty, or just not rest, it must be both not local in nature AND provided by the company. By the way, by company deadhead I mean anytime your company provides you a ticket on anything, be it train, auto or plane.

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Monk said:
what is "local"?
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A good question... the answer is transportation could be considered local in nature if it is "reasonably brief, and that includes travel by crewmembers from their residences, a hotel or motel to an airport."

To head off the next question of what constitutes "reasonably briefness" the answer is that there isn't a real definitive answer, with the aside that the FAA has found that a 1 hour ride in a company provided van could be considered reasonably brief.
 
I ask because that local travel has taken up to an hour and a half one way, just over twenty miles, and in one of the worst winter wx areas around. (BFE) I looked and can't find a definition, (don't tell the company, they would probably have me drive the four hours back to base to file paper work, then drive back).
 
Monk said:
I ask because that local travel has taken up to an hour and a half one way, just over twenty miles, and in one of the worst winter wx areas around. (BFE) I looked and can't find a definition, (don't tell the company, they would probably have me drive the four hours back to base to file paper work, then drive back).
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On the most recent letter (Mar 2011) when the FAA said that one hour could be considered reasonably brief (can find it here) they also said that part of being reasonably brief is that it ensures that a crewmember got sufficient sleep. I think you could argue that on the days where your van takes 3-4 times as long as normal it may not be reasonably brief and therefore not considered part of your rest time. I think only the most dbaggiest of companies would take issue with that.
 
I know that when I am on rest I can't have any duty's, I was just over thinking how a company could really screw with crews with this portion of the reg.
 
Monk said:
I know that when I am on rest I can't have any duty's, I was just over thinking how a company could really screw with crews with this portion of the reg.
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Correct. If the company had some kind of policy that said 'And on the vanride to the hotel finish your paperwork.' Or even like Ameriflight has where you have to fax in a copy of your flight sheet, if you have to wait until you get to the hotel to do that I think it would be very easy to say that your rest period does not start until you are finished performing that duty for the company and if they don't like it they should provide you a fax machine at the airport.
 
SpiraMirabilis said:
Yes, a certificate holder is not requiring you to go home nor are they providing you the transportation (jumpseating is not providing.) Its on your own ass if you commute, you can't say that you're time commuting is not rest. If you could they would have outlawed commuting ages ago.

This is where it gets dicey for many of us in charter however. My company bought me the plane ticket to get back to Burbank, and required me to be on the plane because they didn't spring for the hotel room. The commute was not local in nature because it brought me back home to base. It was REQUIRED of me to get back to base to be availible for the next day.

Additionally "his home station" is not wherever you live, it is your base for your company. For example if you are a Q400 CA out of EWR, so long as they end you up in EWR then as far as the company is concerned you're at your home station and at rest. If you CHOOSE to get on a different flight and go to your actual home that is no different from choosing to get on a flight to Boca and hit the beach as far as the company and the FAA is concerned.
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Which is where we are brought back to. And some of us do not CHOOSE to get on a flight, We are instructed to get on Flight XXX out of XXX.

For it to be "non-rest" the company has to provide you a ticket, ie a deadhead flight.
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I think you were missing something in my reply. I wasn't very clear. But the above should have cleared it up for you. I also think we are on the same page, i.e. if the company provides you with the ticket and requires you to be there or come home, then you are on duty. If you choose to go home, then you are on rest.

Clear as mud?
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mshunter and I were referring to 135 day to day operations not 121 commuting. This is, after all, titled charter woes. The airline tickets always come from the company and are not rest because we are still working for the company (got to turn in the paper work). Every situations is different and all POI's want different answers.
 
SpiraMirabilis said:
For it to be "non-rest" the company has to provide you a ticket, ie a deadhead flight.
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Actually what Sam described is something AMF does all the time on some routes. The company buys the southwest ticket for the pilot to get back to their base so they are available for their next flight. That would be cause for a "no duty or rest" category.
 
From what I understand, deadheading/positioning isn't considered rest, but it's also not counted as part of your flight time/duty period. You still require rest when you reach your destination, but they can position you for 20+ hours if they need you to. Sucks, but that's just how it goes sometimes...
 
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