Aviator1988
Well-Known Member
so.... as i understand it, as long as i have an 80% pass rate and more than 10 recommended checkrides i can get my gold seal? is this correct?
Gold Seal
- Thread starter Aviator1988
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crazyjaydawg
Well-Known Member
I see in your signature that you have an AGI and IGI so yeah just go down to the FSDO, show them your records of sign-offs and they will issue you a new CFI cert.
X-Forces
Big Black Guy
If you get your Gold Seal, be sure to check "Renewal"
When you get the GS you get a freebee renewal, but it is not automatic. If you don't request the renewal they will simply issue a new cert with a gold seal, but with the same expiry date. Don't make that mistake. It happened to a guy I worked with, and I would make fun of him everytime he mentioned that his CFI was about to expire, as we both got our GS around the same time, but I still had another year plus before mine we up.
When you get the GS you get a freebee renewal, but it is not automatic. If you don't request the renewal they will simply issue a new cert with a gold seal, but with the same expiry date. Don't make that mistake. It happened to a guy I worked with, and I would make fun of him everytime he mentioned that his CFI was about to expire, as we both got our GS around the same time, but I still had another year plus before mine we up.
ricecakecm
Well-Known Member
Also, down the road when you have to renew it again, be sure to put "Gold Seal" at the top of the 8710. Otherwise they'll just issue you a certificate with a normal, black seal.
jrh
Well-Known Member
The 80% pass rate is actually a common misunderstanding. Specifically, you must have recommended at least 10 applicants, at least 8 of which must have passed. That's very different than an 80% pass rate.
You could sign off 32 people and have 24 of them fail. Even though your pass rate is only 25%, since 8 of those 32 passed, you'd be eligible for a gold seal certificate.
crazyjaydawg
Well-Known Member
from FAA orders 8900.1 for the issuance of a gold seal:
5-571 Subpart E:
E. Required Criteria. Inspect the applicant’s certificates and record of flight instruction to determine if the applicant meets the following criteria at the time of application:
1) Holds a flight instructor certificate and, at least, a commercial pilot certificate with an instrument rating or an ATP certificate with instrument privileges. Glider flight instructors need not hold an instrument rating;
2) Holds a ground instructor certificate with an advanced or instrument ground instructor rating; and
3) Within the past 24 months has accomplished one of the following:
· Trained and recommended at least 10 applicants for certificates or ratings, and at least 80 percent of these applicants must have passed the flight test on their first attempt;
· Conducted at least 20 practical tests as a designated pilot examiner or 20 graduation tests as chief flight instructor for an approved pilot school course;
· A combination of the above two (two practical tests equal one trained and recommended applicant); or
· Holds a Master Certificated Flight designation from National Association of Flight Instructors (NAFI).
linky
5-571 Subpart E:
E. Required Criteria. Inspect the applicant’s certificates and record of flight instruction to determine if the applicant meets the following criteria at the time of application:
1) Holds a flight instructor certificate and, at least, a commercial pilot certificate with an instrument rating or an ATP certificate with instrument privileges. Glider flight instructors need not hold an instrument rating;
2) Holds a ground instructor certificate with an advanced or instrument ground instructor rating; and
3) Within the past 24 months has accomplished one of the following:
· Trained and recommended at least 10 applicants for certificates or ratings, and at least 80 percent of these applicants must have passed the flight test on their first attempt;
· Conducted at least 20 practical tests as a designated pilot examiner or 20 graduation tests as chief flight instructor for an approved pilot school course;
· A combination of the above two (two practical tests equal one trained and recommended applicant); or
· Holds a Master Certificated Flight designation from National Association of Flight Instructors (NAFI).
linky
subpilot
Squawking 7600
Thanks
jrh
Well-Known Member
Maybe this area is open to more interpretation than I thought.
There is no requirement for a CFI to submit a *complete* record of their sign-offs in order to receive a gold seal certificate. They only need to prove they meet the standards set forth in 8900.1 with a *reliable* record of instruction.
If a CFI signs off 20 applicants, but only 8 pass on their first attempt, the CFI could provide a list of the 8 who passed along with 2 of the 12 who did not.
That would be a reliable record of their instruction and fit the criteria for signing off at least 10 with 80% passing.
Is it "gaming the system" in a way? Sure, in the example I gave it might be.
But think about a CFI who has exactly an 8-2 pass/fail record. The 11th pilot they sign off fails. Should they really have to sign off and have 4 more applicants pass before being eligible for a gold seal...again? Because they were eligible back when they had an 8-2 record. To "lose" eligibility seems a bit bogus to me.
crazyjaydawg
Well-Known Member
jrh, I agree that going from 8-2 to 8-3 is a harsh way to disqualify someone, that person should have just gone to the FSDO before their next recommendation. I was actually in that situation. I was 8-2 but I had a student checkride coming up in two days after reaching the 10. I didn't make time to go to the FSDO and I rolled the dice, now I'm 9-2 and I need to go to the FSDO next week.
While you're right that you can provide a a selective record. I could have written in an extra 20 hrs of multi time in my logbook 6 months ago and been 100 pilots higher on a seniority list somewhere, but there are somethings that just need to be done honestly.
Let me ask as a follow up: Do you believe that a CFI that has a pass rate of 8-12 (40%) is really worthy of being distinguished differently than a flight instructor that has an 8-2 pass rate? I think the gold seal isn't really worth it's weight in gold (pun intended) but if somebody has gotten an 80% then they should be able to say that compared with a time builed that fudges their records and gets the same thing.
As you know, if a flight instructor really wants to distinguish themselves then Master CFI is the way to go....All just my $.02
While you're right that you can provide a a selective record. I could have written in an extra 20 hrs of multi time in my logbook 6 months ago and been 100 pilots higher on a seniority list somewhere, but there are somethings that just need to be done honestly.
Let me ask as a follow up: Do you believe that a CFI that has a pass rate of 8-12 (40%) is really worthy of being distinguished differently than a flight instructor that has an 8-2 pass rate? I think the gold seal isn't really worth it's weight in gold (pun intended) but if somebody has gotten an 80% then they should be able to say that compared with a time builed that fudges their records and gets the same thing.
As you know, if a flight instructor really wants to distinguish themselves then Master CFI is the way to go....All just my $.02
Inverted25
Well-Known Member
Doesnt the FAA have a record of all the students you sent to take checkrides and what the results were?
jrh
Well-Known Member
The difference is you're talking about making up something you haven't done (pencil whipping 20 hours of flight time), versus simply selecting the best part of what you have done (a lot of teaching). I don't see it as being dishonest. The FAA Order does not ask for a complete record. You're assuming that's what the FAA wants. I'm not sure if they do or not. They haven't said so.
When I got my gold seal, the FSDO accepted a partial list of my activities. I met the 80% pass rate no matter how I cut it, so it wasn't an issue in my case, but I only submitted 10 names in order to save time and keep the paperwork simple.
True, I agree the gold seal isn't worth much.
The funny thing is, I've never known an instructor who didn't legitimately deserve a gold seal apply for one. They've all had an 80% pass rate naturally. The shoddy instructors tend to fall by the wayside over time regardless of what the FAA Order says. This whole argument is more theory than reality. The bad instructors never bother to apply for a gold seal.
Agreed. And I should point out, there are no pass rate requirements to become a Master Instructor. And having a Master CFI credential from NAFI automatically qualifies one for a gold seal certificate.
CoffeeIcePapers
Well-Hung Member
Yes, and you are required to keep your own records on your pass/fail rate and have to provide it if you are asked for it.
crazyjaydawg
Well-Known Member
Do you have a source for that?
I directly copied order 8900.1 from the faa website and I have the link in my previous post and that states that a master CFI qualifies