SLI and furlough...

v1valarob said:
and those as a Colgan pilot would be?
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Hehe. I don't care, right?

Look, the SLI has got the best and brightest of all three groups working together. When that fails it'll goto some arbitrator whose goal is to screw everyone. "It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine."
 
SteveC said:
It is often true that the fairest solution is one in which no one is happy.
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What if I promise not to be happy even if I'm singularly placed on top of the whole seniority list? That's right, put the monkey in at #1 on the Pinnacolaba list?
 
SteveC said:
It is often true that the fairest solution is one in which no one is happy.
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No one should gain in the end. After it's all said and done, we should all be able to bid what we can currently bid. If you can currently bid lines with weekends off, it should stay that way. If you can bid a crap line, or good reserve, you should still be at that point. If you're at the bottom, we'll you should still be at the bottom. You shouldn't suddenly be able to upgrade, or suddenly be able to hold
a great line, if you were previously on reserve. As long as I can maintain my personal status quo, I will be happy.
 
v1valarob said:
No one should gain in the end. After it's all said and done, we should all be able to bid what we can currently bid. If you can currently bid lines with weekends off, it should stay that way. If you can bid a crap line, or good reserve, you should still be at that point. If you're at the bottom, we'll you should still be at the bottom. You shouldn't suddenly be able to upgrade, or suddenly be able to hold
a great line, if you were previously on reserve. As long as I can maintain my personal status quo, I will be happy.
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Well that's fine in theory. IF that were the way this were done Mesaba hundreds of pilots (me included) would have to be skipping over more senior pilots on same list, and that's not how this works at all. I have a very good schedule on best paying equipment while people senior to me can't because they are stuck on equipment and base. None of that was their choice, nor did they bid themselves into a hole. I would love to maintain my status quo, I'm not going to after this thing is done, unless there is a lot of upward movement.

May 1st, coming to a company near you!
 
man talk about a thread that should have never been opened! Wether we like it or not, once the arbitrator gives his decision, which might not happen by may first, i guess he can take his sweet time, we are all one pilot group. If pncl furloughs we all feel it, if pinnacle grows we all gain from it. Thats what being one company is all about. Should pinnacle pilots only be furloughed if we park a lot of 200's? No, Should mesaba or colgan guys be furloughed if we park the saabs? No. What is going with the flight attendants is rediculous but the difference between us and them is that there actually is some solidairty between us because we all are kind of in this regional crap shoot together. Half the stuff our flight attendants bitch about they are so uneducated on that it makes it pointless. Just watch when they vote on their contract, less than 50% of them will even vote, but 100% of them will claim they voted no. Telling a 20 year mesaba flight attendant that she will be hired at the bottom of pinnacles list is kind of an insult and i hope something changes in that regard. Im not saying that the pinnacle flight attendants should be any less than what they are now, but there has to be some consideration taken in this matter. Unfortunately it probably never will though. As long as they get their roller bags right!
 
pilotlight said:
man talk about a thread that should have never been opened!
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Well there's a lot of anxiety about the SLI and cencal - Rex, felt it appropriate to bring up "Why ARE we willing to negotiate an ISL with anything less favorable to Pinnacle pilots than a staple of Mesaba and Colgan". One of those "No offense, but..." kinda half assed remarks where you don't want to sound like a d-bag, you just want to say something in utter d-baggery fashion. Doesn't mean Rex is a bad guy, but he's got to yell and stir crap up like a cable TV 24 "news" network to feel like anything is being discussed. Drama drama drama. "Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

We are one contract and soon to be one list. We can't whipsaw each other anymore. While I'm absolutely dreading the SLI and my place on the ISL, it's more important to move forward than backwards and look at the benefits already. Pinnacle and Colgan both have a contract. Horizon won't have to take a pay cut during baseball style arbitration thanks to Colgan, Air Whiskey captain told me yesterday he got a one dollar or so an hour pay raise thanks to Pinnacle wages being brought up. This is our industry, and on a whole it's getting better professionally. We are going to have some hard feelings, but 5 years from now who is going to care?

Hug it out. Besides, after this I think we three (as one) pilot group push out a National Seniority List. Rip off the bandage now baby!
 
cencal83406 said:
Ok so I just found out that USW Airline Division Pinnacle FA's will not be integrating with Mesaba or Colgan. Mesaba FA's will be offered employment opportunities as new hires. I think this is pretty nuts...
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Are you sure about that? The Bond-McCaskill Amendment doesn't allow that.

However, a good point has been raised in discussing this... Why ARE we willing to negotiate an ISL with anything less favorable to Pinnacle pilots than a staple of Mesaba and Colgan...
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Because if you don't, an arbitrator will award it anyway. The less reasonable you are in negotiations, the more likely it is that the arbitrator will shaft you. They don't like to see unreasonable parties.

Should they have fences that specify which pilots get furloughed so that it protects Pinnacle pilots from absorbing resultant overstaffing at Mesaba?
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Everything is subject to negotiation, and you can always propose fences to an arbitrator if a negotiated solution isn't reached. However, arbitrators tend not to like fences, because they create years of disputes.

O&M said:
Not that I've ever had to go through one, but I've always felt seniority list integration should be about a 5 minute deal: Date of hire, but everyone maintains their current seat, position, and domicile. Going forward from that point, everything is as per normal. Positions and bases are awarded in seniority order, etc.
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Date of hire has nothing to do with seniority across companies. Seniority is about bidding priority, and a date of hire at one company gives you a significantly different bidding priority than the same date of hire at a different company. Your mindset is the same as that of the USAirways East pilots who couldn't understand the difference between longevity and seniority. The arbitrator, of course, did understand the difference.
 
Last I heard from the reps in DTW, there were a couple weeks that the arbitrator was unavailable this past month to meet with the committees. He estimated that the earliest we would see a list is mid may, and that's if Bloch has the decision out on time.
 
undsioux1 said:
Last I heard from the reps in DTW, there were a couple weeks that the arbitrator was unavailable this past month to meet with the committees. He estimated that the earliest we would see a list is mid may, and that's if Bloch has the decision out on time.
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How much do we pay this guy? Maybe someone else actually wants our money and would be willing to show up for it.
 
jynxyjoe said:
I'll do it for half!

Also, no one is irreplaceable.
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Yes, there are certainly alternatives. All of them have the same scheduling difficulties, though, because they're in high demand just as he is. If you want a crappy arbitrator who doesn't have a clue what he's doing, then you can probably have him next week. If you want someone experienced who is going to render a fair decision, then you need to learn some patience.
 
Just talked to another guy and he said even with the delay, Bloch already has a pretty good idea of the situation since he has been involved with mediation. That led him to think the list should be out close to May 1. We shall see....
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Yes, there are certainly alternatives. All of them have the same scheduling difficulties, though, because they're in high demand just as he is. If you want a crappy arbitrator who doesn't have a clue what he's doing, then you can probably have him next week. If you want someone experienced who is going to render a fair decision, then you need to learn some patience.
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Yes and I'm the alternative. Hire me.
 
cencal83406 said:
Ok so I just found out that USW Airline Division Pinnacle FA's will not be integrating with Mesaba or Colgan. Mesaba FA's will be offered employment opportunities as new hires. I think this is pretty nuts...

However, a good point has been raised in discussing this... Why ARE we willing to negotiate an ISL with anything less favorable to Pinnacle pilots than a staple of Mesaba and Colgan... Flame away but... Word on the street is that the Saabs aren't going to find a home, and that means pilots on the street. So should Pinnacle pilots eat these furloughs? Acquisition or merger notwithstanding, how is *that* fair to us?

As an aside, I've always supported a fair integration, so before any emotional folks go tearing into me, relax.

Should they have fences that specify which pilots get furloughed so that it protects Pinnacle pilots from absorbing resultant overstaffing at Mesaba?
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Amen brotha! You can say that again!

To ANY Mesaba pilot, where do you really think your airline would be had Pinnacle holdings NOT bought you out? The Saabs were all headed to the desert. Even if you take out the 7 that got LGA flying (and that is thanks to the Pinnacle holdings buyout and relationship with Colgan), there are still SEVERAL dozen Saabs headed out this year and latest by next year. You'd be down to 60 RJs and 7 Saabs. With no new flying, Mesaba would have to MASSIVELY layoff pilots and FAs. Now, Pinnacle holdings buying your airline and integrating one list has become a saving grace. It's the truth whether you want to hear it or not. cencal83406 is 100% correct in his assesment. As a Pinnacle pilot, we are gonna take the burden of any potential furloughs should the several dozen Saabs not find any replacement flying.

As for Colgan, Pinnacle Holdings is the reason you grew and got to where you are today. I really, really hope the arbitrator will use these two things: that Mesaba's career expecations were minimal at best, with layoffs in the future, and that Colgan's growth happened only because of Pinnacle holdings money, at the expense of Pinnacle pilots (we were told our ALPA contract proposal would bankrupt Pinnacle, and that was after the Q400s were bought).

The only fair way, as far as career expectations go, is that Pinnacle pilots get an advantage in SLI. I'm not saying staple, but we definitely need some advantage over Mesaba and Colgan. Over Mesaba, because of career expecations, and over Colgan, for their growth at our expense.



Unfortunately, our Pinnacle union is waaaaayyyy too worried about protecting its own image than anything else. One of the website administrators from the airlinkpilot forums (Pinnnacle pilot forums) has gone on witch hunts, under the direction from a member of the union, to try and find out (basically, call out) a Pinnacle pilot posting opinions on SLI or Mesaba/Colgan on flightinfo and APC. This says volumes about our union. What other union members spend time pulling up IP addresses to identify and "call out" a pilot on another forum, for simply expressing his opinions? Yup, that is how it is here. Wake up and smell the coffee. I've been at this airline long enough to know that our union is nothing more than an appeasing union, and we bend over to please other union groups (like Mesaba).
 
Were you guys paying attention during the USAirways/America West merger and SLI?

Or did we sit that one out and play FarmVille because that was "big boy stuff" and economics and history don't apply to CRJ's?
 
Were you guys paying attention during the USAirways/America West merger and SLI?

Or did we sit that one out and play FarmVille because that was "big boy stuff" and economics and history don't apply to CRJ's?
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Amen brotha! You can say that again!

To ANY Mesaba pilot, where do you really think your airline would be had Pinnacle holdings NOT bought you out? The Saabs were all headed to the desert. Even if you take out the 7 that got LGA flying (and that is thanks to the Pinnacle holdings buyout and relationship with Colgan), there are still SEVERAL dozen Saabs headed out this year and latest by next year. You'd be down to 60 RJs and 7 Saabs. With no new flying, Mesaba would have to MASSIVELY layoff pilots and FAs. Now, Pinnacle holdings buying your airline and integrating one list has become a saving grace. It's the truth whether you want to hear it or not. cencal83406 is 100% correct in his assesment. As a Pinnacle pilot, we are gonna take the burden of any potential furloughs should the several dozen Saabs not find any replacement flying.

As for Colgan, Pinnacle Holdings is the reason you grew and got to where you are today. I really, really hope the arbitrator will use these two things: that Mesaba's career expecations were minimal at best, with layoffs in the future, and that Colgan's growth happened only because of Pinnacle holdings money, at the expense of Pinnacle pilots (we were told our ALPA contract proposal would bankrupt Pinnacle, and that was after the Q400s were bought).

The only fair way, as far as career expectations go, is that Pinnacle pilots get an advantage in SLI. I'm not saying staple, but we definitely need some advantage over Mesaba and Colgan. Over Mesaba, because of career expecations, and over Colgan, for their growth at our expense.



Unfortunately, our Pinnacle union is waaaaayyyy too worried about protecting its own image than anything else. One of the website administrators from the airlinkpilot forums (Pinnnacle pilot forums) has gone on witch hunts, under the direction from a member of the union, to try and find out (basically, call out) a Pinnacle pilot posting opinions on SLI or Mesaba/Colgan on flightinfo and APC. This says volumes about our union. What other union members spend time pulling up IP addresses to identify and "call out" a pilot on another forum, for simply expressing his opinions? Yup, that is how it is here. Wake up and smell the coffee. I've been at this airline long enough to know that our union is nothing more than an appeasing union, and we bend over to please other union groups (like Mesaba).
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you are so right. you guys would have ended up with an awesome contract on your own.............
 
We really need to start thinking of ourselves as one pilot group, not each on their own. This bickering is pointless. Each group contributed in their own way to this merger. Colgan/Pinnacle would not have gotten the massive pay raise and work rules without Mesaba, that is a fact.
 
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