Getting off the scab list

O&M said:
And just as many ended up at Express One, Kiwi...and the unemployment line.
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You're attempting to create the impression that the rEAL pilots ended up with the same fate as the scabs, and that just isn't true. The average rEAL pilot was able to continue a career in the states at a reputable carrier. The average scab was not. Pretty simple.

I'm well aware that ALPA called a sympathy strike. Doesn't change the fact that the labor dispute was between the IAM and Eastern.
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The labor dispute was really between all of organized labor at Eastern and Frank Lorenzo. It just so happened that the IAM was the first group released to strike by the NMB. When that happened, the other labor groups called sympathy strikes. It could have just as easily been a pilot strike called first, with sympathy strikes then called by the other groups. Each group was just looking for an opportunity to stick it to Frank Lorenzo and show him that he couldn't get away with what he was doing.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
The labor dispute was really between all of organized labor at Eastern and Frank Lorenzo. It just so happened that the IAM was the first group released to strike by the NMB. When that happened, the other labor groups called sympathy strikes. It could have just as easily been a pilot strike called first, with sympathy strikes then called by the other groups. Each group was just looking for an opportunity to stick it to Frank Lorenzo and show him that he couldn't get away with what he was doing.
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What is your analysis on how that worked out for them and Lorenzo? Do you think the Eastern strike accomplished anything of value?
 
SurferLucas said:
He's one of those people that a defense of "He needed killin'" would have worked for.
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Blame Lorenzo all you want but that is misguided. Blame the CAL SCABS - those are the guys that made it work for Lorenzo and thereby ruined the profession. Lorenzo could have been stopped cold then, but the CAL SCABS allowed him to continue.
 
WacoFan said:
Blame Lorenzo all you want but that is misguided. Blame the CAL SCABS - those are the guys that made it work for Lorenzo and thereby ruined the profession. Lorenzo could have been stopped cold then, but the CAL SCABS allowed him to continue.
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Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here Jim, but from what I've read about Lorenzo, he was very good at using the "Bankruptcy Card" in order to void union contracts (like he did at Continental/tried to do at Eastern). The pilot's at Continental lost 30-50% after bankruptcy, thanks in part to the scabs (which do share just as much blame/we agree there).

I think what irks me the most about Lorenzo and airline managers like him is that it goes against "common sense" (atleast my view of common sense). When I think about a great airline CEO/President/Manager, I think of Tom Davis from Piedmont.

My view has been with airlines (or any business really), that if treat your employees with respect, reward them for their hard work, enable them and place them in a position to succeed, and make them share the same amount of pride in the company...it's going to work (assuming you have the right product). Your investors are going to want a return on their money, so if all you do is piss off your workers and run the business into the ground, you've not accomplished anything.
 
You're right, Lucas. The bankruptcy laws actually had to be changed in the late '80s specifically because of Lorenzo's abuse of them. The original law contained a loophole that allowed labor contracts to be abrogated simply by filing for bankruptcy. After Lorenzo did that at CAL, Congress got involved and changed the law to prohibit automatic abrogation of labor contracts. Instead, section 1113(c) was added to the bankruptcy code, which requires management to go to a bankruptcy judge to request modifications to labor agreements. Generally, they must demonstrate to the judge that the changes are necessary, and he won't give them a blank check. Still, this has been too much, as we've seen after 9/11, and we need further protections, but it used to be even worse during Lorenzo's early days.
 
SurferLucas said:
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here Jim, but from what I've read about Lorenzo, he was very good at using the "Bankruptcy Card" in order to void union contracts (like he did at Continental/tried to do at Eastern). The pilot's at Continental lost 30-50% after bankruptcy, thanks in part to the scabs (which do share just as much blame/we agree there).

I think what irks me the most about Lorenzo and airline managers like him is that it goes against "common sense" (atleast my view of common sense). When I think about a great airline CEO/President/Manager, I think of Tom Davis from Piedmont.

My view has been with airlines (or any business really), that if treat your employees with respect, reward them for their hard work, enable them and place them in a position to succeed, and make them share the same amount of pride in the company...it's going to work (assuming you have the right product). Your investors are going to want a return on their money, so if all you do is piss off your workers and run the business into the ground, you've not accomplished anything.
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I am not saying I agree with Lorenzo, and ATN explains the bankruptcy issue just below your post - but I personally would hold the SCAB's of 83 more responsible than any single party or group in the downturn of the profession. Lorenzo, like all management, was going to do whatever he could get away with (as Labor will try whatever they can get away with). The SCABS made Lorenzo's plan work - without the people who SCABBED, Lorenzo would have had to change course. That's just my opinion, but the very people who are now CALALPA and "find and hardworking" union guys but had actually SCABBED in 83 should reasonably be villified worse than Lorenzo. With Lorenzo you KNEW he was going to bone you - your brother's in the union, and pilots not with CAL that applied and got hired - that's a boning that you shouldn't, and couldn't expect.
 
WacoFan said:
I am not saying I agree with Lorenzo, and ATN explains the bankruptcy issue just below your post - but I personally would hold the SCAB's of 83 more responsible than any single party or group in the downturn of the profession. Lorenzo, like all management, was going to do whatever he could get away with (as Labor will try whatever they can get away with). The SCABS made Lorenzo's plan work - without the people who SCABBED, Lorenzo would have had to change course. That's just my opinion, but the very people who are now CALALPA and "find and hardworking" union guys but had actually SCABBED in 83 should reasonably be villified worse than Lorenzo. With Lorenzo you KNEW he was going to bone you - your brother's in the union, and pilots not with CAL that applied and got hired - that's a boning that you shouldn't, and couldn't expect.
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I think we're on the same page here, meaning I don't hold Lorenzo completely responsible. If the CAL pilot's hadn't scabbed in 83, Lorenzo wouldn't have gotten a chance to do the same at Eastern and Congress wouldn't have had to pass more laws on voiding contracts during bankruptcy (if I'm understanding my history here, again, if I'm off on something, correct me because I'm here to learn!). So, they enabled him to use his tactics further, rather than it being nipped in the bud if they had all held together.

My comment of "He needed killin'" comes from the fact that I know quite a few guys from Eastern that lost their jobs because of him and I heard those stories from a fairly young age. My first grade teacher's assistant, her husband got out of Eastern in 1990 just before the strikes and hates Lorenzo, he would come in just to talk to me about flying airplanes and helped me develop my love for the L-1011.
 
Aye yi yi.

Well, needless to say, educate yourself and stay off the scab list.

Think of it like "OMG, if I had sex with a chicken am I into bestiality?" Well, don't screw a chicken and put yourself in that quandary.

All I need is yet another inbox full of "Dear Dough, I wrecked my career, save me" emails. That happens, folks.
 
Doug Taylor said:
Aye yi yi...
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Hey, go Aye yi yi on your own website, we're trying to have a talk about pilots/labor unions and management, this is important stuff.....wait a tick, what?! :) (Roadhouse, just for good measure)

Shouldn't you be out in Amsterdam enjoying a beer Mr. Taylor?
 
Well, if I drank a beer right now I'd probably be on the news in a few hours after my release!
 
Under no circumstances should you ever cross a picket line in the aviation industry. Don't do it. Nobody has ever won this game.

Joe
 
A scab is a scab for life, and possibly afterwards. The question as to whether or not this will be an extreme barrier for someone to make a living in this profession is debatable and I think boils down to timing and luck, but that wouldn't change what you are. I am sure there were or perhaps even still are some CAL scabs that make good money but whom hardly a word except a checklist item is spoken to. I don't think most people have the wherewithal to accept disdain on a continual basis from their co-workers over a period of years or decades.
 
SpiraMirabilis said:
A scab is a scab for life, and possibly afterwards. The question as to whether or not this will be an extreme barrier for someone to make a living in this profession is debatable and I think boils down to timing and luck, but that wouldn't change what you are. I am sure there were or perhaps even still are some CAL scabs that make good money but whom hardly a word except a checklist item is spoken to. I don't think most people have the wherewithal to accept disdain on a continual basis from their co-workers over a period of years or decades.
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I have to question the above bolded statements. Remember that ALPA "forgave" the CAL scabs, since it was in their best interest to do so in order to get back on property there. CAL wasn't ALPA for years following the bankruptcy and ALPA getting locked out. For a time, the scabs outnumbered the ALPA pilots there and there was no union, if Im remembering the story correctly. Eventually though, ALPA saw the benefit of bringing the CAL pilots back into the fold and won the right to represent them again years later. While not likely "forgiven" on an individual basis, these guys certainly were "forgiven" on a corporate basis. So the "scab is a scab for life", while true in theory, may not be so true in practice.......or at least in this one very small example of practice vis-a-vis CAL.

Still, scabbing isn't something thats a good thing to do, regardless.
 
At my airport (GA mostly) theres quite a few old timers hanging around. Coincidently one of the flight school owners and another guy that has a plane here were old Eastern Airline alums until they went under in 1991.

One of the guys had crossed the picket line back then because he couldn't afford to pay the bills and feed his family otherwise. The first guy who owns the flight school was a big pro union guy and the two knew each other but didn't call along, one calling the other scab etc. Well the company went under and 18 years went by...

Both are now retired and done and they didn't recognize each at first. But once my friend (the second guy) realized who the other person was, he approached him and they still didn't like each other. Another year went by and they're finally on speaking terms and its mostly under the bridge.

So it can go away but it takes quite awhile I guess. To be honest as much as I wouldn't cross a picket line and wouldn't really like a scab... Its certainly not worth ruining my own career or going to jail over by committing a stupid act.

Slashing tires and fist fights? Grow up. And if I did cross a picket line and someone showed up at my house they better be wearing body armor.
 
MikeD said:
Thats very adult..........and a good way to land in jail.

But I thought unions didn't promote violence? Obviously, they do.
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I was told by a prominent union figure-head here last weekend that he was "done with me" because I suggested that unions had a violent undercurrent to them historically and currently. Be careful here and perhaps post a video of Joan Baez singing "I Dreamed I saw Joe Hill" or something because he will also "Be done with you" as well.
 
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