Degree/Flight Training

[ViperChief]

Hey there! I'm currently in the Air Force but will be separating soon. Thanks to the Post 9/11 GI Bill, I'll finally get to fulfill my lifelong dream (I'm 28...it's been a long dream) of flying. I've been looking around at different schools trying to figure out which one was best. I want to get a bachelor's. I ended up looking at Western Michigan due to the proximity of where "home" is (northern Indiana). It didn't look too bad, but the lady I spoke to on the phone said they only go up to multi-commercial. I was hoping to get at least CFII out of my degree. Pretty much, if I'm going to use government money, I want it to go as far as it can (just as I would want money out of my pocket to go as far as possible).

But, so far, WMU looked the best. Then, I found Northwestern Michigan and saw that they also have a partnership with Ferris State for a BS in Business Administration - Aviation. I really like this idea. I would much prefer to get some business classes than filler classes. I'm sure that the filler classes in a strictly flying degree would be informational, I think that, long term, it would help me more to have a BSBA.

Looking at the printout, it looks really nice. It says that upon completion of the first two years, you're expected to have completed commercial single and multi, instrument, CFI and 210 hours total (I'm unclear...I guess they mean 210 on top of what's required for the other ratings? EDIT...Never mind, I didn't realize that the 250 hour was for Part 61 and the 141 requirements were lower until I just read it). Then, at the end of the 4 years, it's expected that one has their BSBA and one other flying-related accomplishment.

This looks really good. I'm going to call them tomorrow (Monday), especially since the printout is from 2008. But, I wanted to get some opinions. Have any of you dealt with NMC either for just flight training or for this joint deal? Is it worth going up to Traverse City for this when I plan on getting an MBA after I finish my BS? Or, would it be better for me to take those informational/potentially helpful filler classes with WMU?

Those who know NMC...do they have their own fleet and does all the money go to them? I ask because the VA won't pay for outsourcing...the flying has to be done by the college.

I thank any and all that can help me with this decision! Thank you!

 

[aviatoralex]

Two words.
Purdue. Boilermakers. :rawk:

But seriously, I want to go to Purdue, and I come all the way from Greece. (Mind you, I'm Greek-American.) Purdue is also in Indiana, so it's kinda like a no-brainer for you to go to there as well. It's a big ten school (in case you haven't already noticed) and it has one of (if not the best) flight program in the US. As for NMC, I really have no clue.
Good luck and thanks for your service to our country.

Alex

 

[ppragman]

Hey there! I'm currently in the Air Force but will be separating soon. Thanks to the Post 9/11 GI Bill, I'll finally get to fulfill my lifelong dream (I'm 28...it's been a long dream) of flying. I've been looking around at different schools trying to figure out which one was best. I want to get a bachelor's. I ended up looking at Western Michigan due to the proximity of where "home" is (northern Indiana). It didn't look too bad, but the lady I spoke to on the phone said they only go up to multi-commercial. I was hoping to get at least CFII out of my degree. Pretty much, if I'm going to use government money, I want it to go as far as it can (just as I would want money out of my pocket to go as far as possible).

But, so far, WMU looked the best. Then, I found Northwestern Michigan and saw that they also have a partnership with Ferris State for a BS in Business Administration - Aviation. I really like this idea. I would much prefer to get some business classes than filler classes. I'm sure that the filler classes in a strictly flying degree would be informational, I think that, long term, it would help me more to have a BSBA.

Looking at the printout, it looks really nice. It says that upon completion of the first two years, you're expected to have completed commercial single and multi, instrument, CFI and 210 hours total (I'm unclear...I guess they mean 210 on top of what's required for the other ratings? EDIT...Never mind, I didn't realize that the 250 hour was for Part 61 and the 141 requirements were lower until I just read it). Then, at the end of the 4 years, it's expected that one has their BSBA and one other flying-related accomplishment.

This looks really good. I'm going to call them tomorrow (Monday), especially since the printout is from 2008. But, I wanted to get some opinions. Have any of you dealt with NMC either for just flight training or for this joint deal? Is it worth going up to Traverse City for this when I plan on getting an MBA after I finish my BS? Or, would it be better for me to take those informational/potentially helpful filler classes with WMU?

Those who know NMC...do they have their own fleet and does all the money go to them? I ask because the VA won't pay for outsourcing...the flying has to be done by the college.

I thank any and all that can help me with this decision! Thank you!

Here's the thing: you're not going to be qualified for any job with a wet ink commercial certificate and barely any time when you get done with your degree. I recommend you find a local flight school that goes through CFII/MEI on the cheap and has a 141 program (so you can use the GI Bill) and go to college on the side to get a fall back degree, or otherwise secure yourself. Get a degree in something that interests you in addition to aviation. Yeah, I know that I'm a hypocrite because I'm finishing off an aviation degree right now, but that's not for lack of trying, I just couldn't maintain going to school full time and working full time so I had to change things up a bit. Anyhow. Good luck

 

[ViperChief]

Here's the thing: you're not going to be qualified for any job with a wet ink commercial certificate and barely any time when you get done with your degree. I recommend you find a local flight school that goes through CFII/MEI on the cheap and has a 141 program (so you can use the GI Bill) and go to college on the side to get a fall back degree, or otherwise secure yourself. Get a degree in something that interests you in addition to aviation. Yeah, I know that I'm a hypocrite because I'm finishing off an aviation degree right now, but that's not for lack of trying, I just couldn't maintain going to school full time and working full time so I had to change things up a bit. Anyhow. Good luck

Well, the reason I'm looking at NMC is because of the whole leaving with a BSBA in addition to flying. I can get my flying done much quicker and through them and still walk out with the same certifications as a small 141 school, but the GI Bill will pay for it faster, whereas I have a $10,000/year limit with a regular 141 school (in comparison, at the school, I have something like a $19,000/semester cap for fees). And, in addition, I leave with the BA degree, which is why I like that better than a "Professional Pilot" type degree. That way, if I'm delayed with my MBA, I have something. The business core of the degree is 40 hours, which seems to be about the normal amount.

I guess I see it as having my cake and eating it, too. I spend the first two years working on flying, fully covered by the GI Bill without having to worry about the $10k/year limit and I get to walk out with a full BSBA degree.

 

[JetFlyer6]

Well, the reason I'm looking at NMC is because of the whole leaving with a BSBA in addition to flying. I can get my flying done much quicker and through them and still walk out with the same certifications as a small 141 school, but the GI Bill will pay for it faster, whereas I have a $10,000/year limit with a regular 141 school (in comparison, at the school, I have something like a $19,000/semester cap for fees). And, in addition, I leave with the BA degree, which is why I like that better than a "Professional Pilot" type degree. That way, if I'm delayed with my MBA, I have something. The business core of the degree is 40 hours, which seems to be about the normal amount.

I guess I see it as having my cake and eating it, too. I spend the first two years working on flying, fully covered by the GI Bill without having to worry about the $10k/year limit and I get to walk out with a full BSBA degree.

That's the best way to do it. Many will suggest you do your flight training through a FBO and go to college to major in something else. What many do not understand is that the post 9/11 and chapter 30 have certain stipulations with flight training done at a vocational school or a FBO.
-10K per year (under the post 9/11 2.0)
-60 percent (under the chapter 30)
-100 Percent (under post 9/11 Done at a institution of higher learning - College)

The choice is a no brainer
take the 100 percent get the flying done at no cost to you.
I think the best way to do it, is fly at a community college and get a 2 year degree in aviation so you dont use all of your GI Bill. That way to can major in something else with flight certs in hand.

 

[ViperChief]

That's the best way to do it. Many will suggest you do your flight training through a FBO and go to college to major in something else. What many do not understand is that the post 9/11 and chapter 30 have certain stipulations with flight training done at a vocational school or a FBO.
-10K per year (under the post 9/11 2.0)
-60 percent (under the chapter 30)
-100 Percent (under post 9/11 Done at a institution of higher learning - College)

Exactly. I need to get in touch with someone in the the VA to verify this stays with the changes going into effect this fall. All of the school veteran's offices that I've talked to aren't sure but the way I read it on the Post 9/11 GI Bill website, it'll stay like this.

The choice is a no brainer
take the 100 percent get the flying done at no cost to you.
I think the best way to do it, is fly at a community college and get a 2 year degree in aviation so you dont use all of your GI Bill. That way to can major in something else with flight certs in hand.

That's why I like the NMC program. Spend two years learning to fly then another two years finishing up a business degree through a partnership with Ferris State. Seems like a winning combo to me.

 

[JetFlyer6]

Exactly. I need to get in touch with someone in the the VA to verify this stays with the changes going into effect this fall. All of the school veteran's offices that I've talked to aren't sure but the way I read it on the Post 9/11 GI Bill website, it'll stay like this.



That's why I like the NMC program. Spend two years learning to fly then another two years finishing up a business degree through a partnership with Ferris State. Seems like a winning combo to me.

This 2.0 change shouldn't affect anything, but don't take anyone's word for it who isn't a VA offical. Michigan has a tution cap of 1,001 per term and a fee cap of 19,374.50, everything so far looks really good.
I would recommend getting in touch with some students who have or are currently taking that program, just to get an inside look at what to expect. Plus its always good to look at other schools that offer aviation, just so you have a plan "B" if things dont go through with NMC.
NMC looks like they have everything togather, but im just basing that on their website and how they have it outlined.

 

[motormadness24]

Two words.
Purdue. Boilermakers. :rawk:

But seriously, I want to go to Purdue, and I come all the way from Greece. (Mind you, I'm Greek-American.) Purdue is also in Indiana, so it's kinda like a no-brainer for you to go to there as well. It's a big ten school (in case you haven't already noticed) and it has one of (if not the best) flight program in the US. As for NMC, I really have no clue.
Good luck and thanks for your service to our country.

Alex

I don't really mean to knock you too badly here but here goes. So Purdue is a Big Ten school. What significance does that have on flight training? Second, I'm sure Purdue has a great bunch of people up there and I know many people probably love their shiny new Cirrus's. But really, at the end of the day, is their obnoxious costs really worth it? I'd personally take a second look at going to a little cheaper of a school before you bury yourself in debt up to your eyeballs since I know you've got a few more years to go.

 

[aviatoralex]

I don't really mean to knock you too badly here but here goes. So Purdue is a Big Ten school. What significance does that have on flight training? Second, I'm sure Purdue has a great bunch of people up there and I know many people probably love their shiny new Cirrus's. But really, at the end of the day, is their obnoxious costs really worth it? I'd personally take a second look at going to a little cheaper of a school before you bury yourself in debt up to your eyeballs since I know you've got a few more years to go.

Why go to a big ten school? Because its fun! It doesn't have any significance on flight training but it sure does add to the college experience! Strictly aviation schools are boring and I think an all round college experience is important to one. In his case, cost is not important because of the post 9/11 bill. In my case, one word: savings.

 

[erictgill]

Why go to a big ten school? Because its fun! It doesn't have any significance on flight training but it sure does add to the college experience! Strictly aviation schools are boring and I think an all round college experience is important to one. In his case, cost is not important because of the post 9/11 bill. In my case, one word: savings.

I say go for it bro! as long as your not buried in debt in the end and you have considered the risks. Have fun and good luck!

 

[ViperChief]

Why go to a big ten school? Because its fun! It doesn't have any significance on flight training but it sure does add to the college experience! Strictly aviation schools are boring and I think an all round college experience is important to one. In his case, cost is not important because of the post 9/11 bill. In my case, one word: savings.

The college experience is not really something that is impacting my decision. I'm 28 and have spent 7 years in the military. I'm not too concerned with the college experience other than the classes, flight training and the degree. For you though...if that's what you're looking for...go for it and have fun.

 

[aviatoralex]

The college experience is not really something that is impacting my decision. I'm 28 and have spent 7 years in the military. I'm not too concerned with the college experience other than the classes, flight training and the degree. For you though...if that's what you're looking for...go for it and have fun.

The thing is, it's not only that it's a big ten school, but it is also close to you and is amongst the 3 top aviation universities in the US. Just make sure you attend an AABI accredited school as I have heard that it is very important. I think both WMU and Purdue are great university choices, btw. Good luck

 

[ahmed]

The college experience is not really something that is impacting my decision. I'm 28 and have spent 7 years in the military. I'm not too concerned with the college experience other than the classes, flight training and the degree. For you though...if that's what you're looking for...go for it and have fun.

From what I've gathered on this forum, everyone who has been there and done that is either regretting the fact that they didn't secure a backup degree or they are glad that they did create something to fall back on. The only ones who can't stop cheering for aviation degrees are high-schoolers and students in college who haven't had a chance to take a step back and consider the possibility that they may very well lose their medical by flukes like getting in a car accident or having a genetic disposition to developing diabetes. I think the program you mentioned which involves flight training certificates and a bachelors in business administration is a sound option.

All the best.

 

[twotwowoo]

I went to Western Michigan, graduated in 2009. It's a good school, Kalamazoo is a great town and I met some great people during my time at WMU. On the other hand, there are a lot of negatives with the aviation program:

1) Cost. It's ridiculously high. Of course, this isn't a concern for you since you have the GI Bill.

2) Weather. It sucks. No other way to put it. You will have to fight weather on a very regular basis to fly. Battle Creek (where the flying is done) gets lake-effect snow, lake-effect rain, low clouds, high winds and thunderstorms on a regular basis. There were times when I couldn't fly for almost two weeks because of bad weather.

3) Wait times. I'm not sure how it is today, but I know back in 2005-2009 it took forever to schedule progress checks and stage checks, which are required to move on to the next level. I remember waiting over a month to schedule my stage check for my private. That can erode your skills when you're a new pilot.

4) Worthless degree. If you ever do decide to leave aviation and do something else, or you lose your medical, your degree won't be worth the paper its printed on. I left aviation and I couldn't even qualify for jobs that needed more than a warm body and a GED. Your WMU aviation degree is garbage outside of flying.

Personally, having been there, done that and got the t-shirt, I'd recommend either doing the flying on the side and using your GI bennies to get a real degree, or going to a community college and training there. Also, I'd recommend avoiding any school in Michigan, both for the weather (NMC - Traverse City gets terrible weather too) and the lack of jobs in the area. You'll almost have to move out of Michigan after you graduate, unless you're satisfied working as a CFI.