New 1500 / ATP for 121 Rule, details?

embraer07 said:
What in the world are you talking about? Who the hell is Ari??

I wasn't talking poop about anybody...did you quote the wrong post?
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Ari is the AE pilot hired with 197TT. The one you think only has a job because the airline was desperate.
 
Gonzo said:
Ari is the AE pilot hired with 197TT. The one you think only has a job because the airline was desperate.
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Don't put words in my mouth...or take out your issues on me.

Hiring pilots with less than 250 PIC when you know they will need those minimus eventually IS hiring out of desperation. I never said anything about qualifications or abilities...I certainly wasn't talking "poop" about anybody.

Nice try...
[modhat] OK you both have had a shot...that's it folks.[/modhat]
 
kellwolf said:
Ah, the CC defense. I did it this way, it was right and anyone that says differently is flat out wrong. Sometimes it's not the low time....it's the ATTITUDE that goes with it. That and guys that think it's okay to step on the guy next to them for an ATP and more pay. I guaran-damn-tee you it's NOT just the guys on Jetcareers think this way. Take it over to the company board, and you'll see the same opinion from guys that haven't even heard of Jetcareers. But, they must be wrong, too.
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I'm sure you know this, but the company board consists of 50% pilots who are ex-Gulfstream. Yes, there are that many at Pinnacle...

And Gulfstream was pay for JOB. They paid for turboprop time and found their way to Pinnacle. I didn't buy any airplane time, and all I got was a lousy interview. So, my path was not PFJ, which is what 50% of the Pinnacle pilot group did at Gulfstream.

To someone that asked "Why not raise pay to attract more qualified applicants?" There's your answer. Guys are willing to shell out $30k for an INTERVIEW. Someone was actually giving him a little bit of credit when he said he paid $30k for the job. Then he had to come back and say it was just for the interview. I wouldn't actually be tooting my horn about getting hired at 9E during that time. Pretty well known fact that we'd hire anyone with wet ink and a pulse at the time. If I were an HR person, I'd be more likely to hire someone that shelled out their own money for a sneak peek at our training program, too. HR is only concerned with getting bodies through the door, into the sims and out on the line. Once they're through there, it's the line CAs' problem. A low time guy that's willing to learn, listen and open to ideas, I can handle. Granted, I shouldn't HAVE to teach basic airmanship like cross wind landings and radio phraseology. Guys with "I already know all this" attitudes that keep saying "I can't wait to upgrade" when they can't even master the confusing stuff like discretionary descents or taxi instructions in JFK are the ones that get my blood pressure up. It's even worse that we have guys that have been here for years that are still that way. Bumps on the seat that are waiting for their seniority number to come up so they can make more money, get their 1000 TPIC and go to Southwest. News flash, Sparky. There are guys out there with 3 times that still waiting on phone calls. Believe it or not, we've still got guys that think when they block in at the gate after hour 1001 in the left seat, the heavens will part, angels will sing and Colleen Barrett herself will call to invite them to interview in Dallas.
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hahahaha, no, but being in that seat sure would be better than the right seat. As for raising pay to attract applicants, 9E mgt tried, our union turned it down. 4 years later, we finally got a new contract. Score!



think it's okay to step on the guy next to them for an ATP and more pay
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What? How have I suggested stepping on a guy to upgrade, get an ATP, and more pay? Upgrade comes up strictly by seniority, so.......??
 
Hacker15e said:
So...you're proud to admit that you've sidestepped the normal pipeline via a RJ transition course, and the evidence that your shortcut 'works' is that you passed the RJ checkride and got yourself a seniority number. Yet, right here you show how easy the airplane is to fly. Smooth.
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What is your definition of "normal pipeline"??? Where is the written holy grail that explains what normal pipeline is? At Pinnacle, nearly half the pilot group came out of paying for jobs program at Gulfstream. So, one can argue that at my airline, the normal pipeline is transition courses. What's wrong with saying the airplane is easy to fly? It is easy.
 
Gonzo said:
Ari is the AE pilot hired with 197TT. The one you think only has a job because the airline was desperate.
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Well, it probably wasn't because they were flooded with ATP candidates at the time. While your friend is probably a good stick, I'm puzzled how one could develop the airmanship that SHOULD be required of an airline pilot at such low TT.
 
wrxpilot said:
Well, it probably wasn't because they were flooded with ATP candidates at the time. While your friend is probably a good stick, I'm puzzled how one could develop the airmanship that SHOULD be required of an airline pilot at such low TT.
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So if a pilot isn't capable of flying SIC with an experienced pilot next to him/her, what makes the same pilot a good candidate to teach people how to fly?
 
Ok everyone. Time to get drunk and go screw something. It is what it is. None of you can change it.

<edit>

I really thought this master-debate was over in 2008. Clearly its not.


[modhat]Edited by Doug[/modhat]
 
Its not really the TT I'm worried about its the PIC time and Instrument time. And not just the PIC pilot flying, I mean the single pilot, sole manipulater, and decision maker time. That sort of time forces the pilot to make decisions on his own and builds confidence and skill. The same problem is amplified with the foreign students I was training a few years back. We were forced to push these guys through quick, and many of the students were not ready, and not just they're stick and rudder skills. They're confidence and decision making skills was weak too which lead to many problems. The biggest problems with m students from India even after solo was that they were always waiting for me to tell them what to do vs. doing it.

Personally, I would rather see the FAA implement a rule that requires something like 200 Dual Given or 200 Solo with 50 IFR hours (in a high performance or complex aircraft) in the previous 24 calender months rather than 1500TT.
 
I'm a strong believer that any pilot with the correct primary training and new hire airline training will do well regardless of their TT when hired...it's how airlines around the world do it and the military. If safety is an issue, then take a look at the track record of such airlines as Lufthansa, British Airways, Iberia, Air France, etc... none of them require half the time that the regionals in the U.S. do; and they fly Boeing and Airbus aircraft. While we debate 1500TT and 200 multi to fly regionals starting at $18k/year; Lufthansa only requires 600TT and no multi for FOs to start out making over $70k/year. Then they put you through their training before sending you out on the line. So obviously somebody is doing it right and somebody is doing it very, very wrong.

The only thing that confuses me, is if here in the U.S. airlines (and the regulations depending on how you read it) require 250 PIC to upgrade to Captain; then why hire somebody with less than that time knowing it will create an issue down the road? They can't expect all their FOs to one day go out and begin renting GA aircraft on their days off to build that time.
 
embraer07 said:
I'm a strong believer that any pilot with the correct primary training and new hire airline training will do well regardless of their TT when hired...it's how airlines around the world do it and the military. If safety is an issue, then take a look at the track record of such airlines as Lufthansa, British Airways, Iberia, Air France, etc... none of them require half the time that the regionals in the U.S. do; and they fly Boeing and Airbus aircraft. While we debate 1500TT and 200 multi to fly regionals starting at $18k/year; Lufthansa only requires 600TT and no multi for FOs to start out making over $70k/year. Then they put you through their training before sending you out on the line. So obviously somebody is doing it right and somebody is doing it very, very wrong.

The only thing that confuses me, is if here in the U.S. airlines (and the regulations depending on how you read it) require 250 PIC to upgrade to Captain; then why hire somebody with less than that time knowing it will create an issue down the road? They can't expect all their FOs to one day go out and begin renting GA aircraft on their days off to build that time.
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Why not?
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
I'm sure you know this, but the company board consists of 50% pilots who are ex-Gulfstream. Yes, there are that many at Pinnacle...

And Gulfstream was pay for JOB. They paid for turboprop time and found their way to Pinnacle. I didn't buy any airplane time, and all I got was a lousy interview. So, my path was not PFJ, which is what 50% of the Pinnacle pilot group did at Gulfstream.
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Justify it all you want. I think the same thing about Gulfstream, though. Fact of the matter is, even though they paid for it, they have more real world experience than someone that went to JetU. Sure, the JetU guy would be awesome to have to run the QRH for single engine procedures, but how much flying in the ATC system would he have? What about a deferred FMS when you're NOT on vectors from a guy sitting behind you?

hahahaha, no, but being in that seat sure would be better than the right seat. As for raising pay to attract applicants, 9E mgt tried, our union turned it down. 4 years later, we finally got a new contract. Score!
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Pretty sure that if the union knew that the industry was going to come to a screeching halt a few months later the outcome would have been different. Hindsight's always 20/20. We also turned down the company's "last best and final offer" the year before that. Since it was only a 3 year deal, we would have been back in negotiations before we eventually wound up signing a new contract. We can point to the past a lot, ya know. The fact is, you go with the information you have at the time and make the decision. The company was hurting for pilots, we were hurting for a contract. The union saw a place where they could put pressure on the company and tried to use it. The price of oil went up, majors stopped hiring and things came to a dead stop. No one saw it coming, or at least not that badly. I was an FO at the time, too. I supported the union decision, and I still do.



What? How have I suggested stepping on a guy to upgrade, get an ATP, and more pay? Upgrade comes up strictly by seniority, so.......??
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Not you specifically, but we've got guys here that would.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
What is your definition of "normal pipeline"??? Where is the written holy grail that explains what normal pipeline is? At Pinnacle, nearly half the pilot group came out of paying for jobs program at Gulfstream. So, one can argue that at my airline, the normal pipeline is transition courses. What's wrong with saying the airplane is easy to fly? It is easy.
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I'm curious to see where you're getting the "nearly half the pilot group came out of paying for jobs program at Gulfstream." You're saying the equivalent of every FO we have went to Gulfstream? 'Cause that would be about half. Lemme see.....none in my class. None in my upgrade class. When I was an FO, I flew with TWO guys that went to Gulfstream. Since I upgraded, I've flown with.....well, zero. I'd say we've got way more guys from UND or ATP than Gulfstream.
 
jtrain609 said:
Why not?
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Well, they can but it seems counter productive. Especially since most won't be able to afford to do so. They can't instruct on the side so every .1 on the hobbs is on their own dime...and I don't think that regional FOs have a whole lot of expendable income. That's the main obstacle I see...other than that, no worries :)
 
embraer07 said:
Well, they can but it seems counter productive. Especially since most won't be able to afford to do so. They can't instruct on the side so every .1 on the hobbs is on their own dime...and I don't think that regional FOs have a whole lot of expendable income. That's the main obstacle I see...other than that, no worries :)
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So what?

Upgrade isn't assured anywhere. If you don't meed the qualifications, then you either get them or stay in the right seat.

I guess that's the only point I'm trying to make.
 
jtrain609 said:
So what?

Upgrade isn't assured anywhere. If you don't meed the qualifications, then you either get them or stay in the right seat.

I guess that's the only point I'm trying to make.
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I hear ya...and agree. It just boggles my mind the logic (or lack of...) behind the whole process.
 
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