Citation Roll

Jimmy_Norton said:
Check out this •:

[video=youtube;FHFIUuhWpm4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHFIUuhWpm4[/video]
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Hmm... I personally know a guy who's successfully rolled a Lear many times. Why don't you call him an • to his face and see how well that works out for you.
 
I think people talk trash about guys who go beyond straight and level simply because THEY can't..
 
Tram said:
I think people talk trash about guys who go beyond straight and level simply because THEY can't..
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No, I definately know how to roll an airplane. I've just been around long enough to see enough people try to do this in other people's airplanes- or even their own airplanes with pax on board- and not succeed. Refer to the NTSB summaries I posted earlier as well as the foreign accident results- such as the one where the accident board recommended that all the charter companies airplanes be forced to undergo over stress inspections. I'm sure that won't impact their bottom line.
 
Blackhawk said:
No, I definately know how to roll an airplane. I've just been around long enough to see enough people try to do this in other people's airplanes- or even their own airplanes with pax on board- and not succeed. Refer to the NTSB summaries I posted earlier as well as the foreign accident results- such as the one where the accident board recommended that all the charter companies airplanes be forced to undergo over stress inspections. I'm sure that won't impact their bottom line.
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Your arguments are always well formed, with case file supporting usually.. I wouldn't call that talking trash.. ;)
 
Tram said:
I think people talk trash about guys who go beyond straight and level simply because THEY can't..
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Really? OK, go start rolling every transport category aircraft that you get paid to fly, and see how long your career lasts. I get paid to fly peoples airplanes the way they are supposed to be flown, I don't need to prove how big my dick is by doing low level acro. Like a bunch of posters have said before this, there have been MANY times where people have tried to roll aircraft they shouldn't, and it ends in a smoking hole. If you're doing rolls in a Lear at low altitude, on camera, you're an •.
 
Before this thread spirals out of control, no pun intended. There are a few questions that need to be answered in a general manner.

For the Lear or Citation performing an aileron roll or barrel roll:

1. Is it possible? Sure, its physically possible to do.

2. Is it safe, aircraft-wise? If you're able to keep it within the aircraft's G limitations, then it technically can be safely performed in a strict physical-discussion sense.

3. Is it legal, aircraft-wise? Depends. If there are any limitations to the aircraft itself, then it may not be.

4. Is it necessary or safe for any kind of operational need and/or purpose? With the aforementioned exception of Bob Hoover and his performance, likely not. In fact, Hoover was using a Saberliner, which is essentially an F-86 that can carry pax, more or less. But his case is a very rare exception.

So in descending order, these are the questions that once answered, show the difference between an pilot physically being able to perform a particular maneuver versus the prudence of doing so.
 
Define "low altitude"...
None of the videos shown took place at "low altitude". You wouldnt want to try to roll any of those aircraft up in the flight levels...


There's safe and then there's legal.

There was really nothing unsafe about the maneuvers in the Citation and Lear videos. Altitude appeared adequate. Both rolls were done nicely. What's interesting is see the huge difference in roll rate between the two aircraft and how the pilots compensated.

Gripe all you want about operating limitations. In both rolls, the load factor was kept positive and with in limits. The airplane has no idea it's gone upside down.

The the Lear 20 series is an easy rolling airplane. Now assuming the Lear pilot had only rolled a Lear and nothing else. Now he tries to roll that Citation... This is where things get ugly... It's why the legal part gets involved.

Just because a pilot rolls a Lear safely doesn't make him an •. It looks like a lot of fun, and the owner/PAX might actually like it. *gasp* I know crazy huh?? Aviation was different back in the early 70s. No you tube..
 
Weren't there some Airnet guys a few years back that broke some expensive stuff trying to roll a Lear?
 
JordanD said:
Weren't there some Airnet guys a few years back that broke some expensive stuff trying to roll a Lear?
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Tried being the operative word.

Anyone who says rolling an airplane is easy has more than likely never done it. Then you have the type who did it once with a friend on an aerobatic ride and now know just enough to be dangerous.

I've taught a lot of pilots how to roll an airplane. Very few get it right the first try. The ones who do, still have been briefed on common errors, what to expect and how to do it.

Not to say one couldn't teach themselves... Get the right airplane and plenty of altitude and have at it! It's going to take more than one try though. All of those accident reports Blackhawk posted started with that first try...
 
MikeD said:
With the aforementioned exception of Bob Hoover and his performance, likely not. In fact, Hoover was using a Saberliner, which is essentially an F-86 that can carry pax, more or less. But his case is a very rare exception..
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The video I posted is of Clay Lacy rolling his Lear 23 at an airshow.
 
Hacker15e said:
The video I posted is of Clay Lacy rolling his Lear 23 at an airshow.
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Thats pretty cool!

Like I said, there's safe; there's legal; than there's reasonable and prudent. All of which can vary depending on a number of factors.

For all of the above, RJ nancies need not reply..... :) :) :sarcasm:
 
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