Pilot knowledge for Controllers

[cime_sp]

I'm a controller with my Commercial SEL. I'd really love to see things from a jumpseat perspective in a lot of aircraft. Unfortunately the kinks still aren't worked out from Sep 11. Pilots can take tours of ATC facilities though. Something simple to remember is that center controllers are much more restricted in separation options than approach controls, even when center is providing approach services.

Controllers are required when an emergency is declared to get your Callsign (easy), Nature of emergency, and pilot desires. These 3 things are required no matter what. Then there is a long list of items that are judgment calls to solicit. Here's where the big problem comes in. When an emergency is declared, tapes will be pulled on the controller for the duration of the emergency. So controllers feel pressured to get all information or face possible consequences if they miss something. Just the other day a regional jet had partial power in one engine.. ATC declared an emergency for them. It was another center that declared the emergency. I receive a call from the center stating the issue, that the CRJ needed no special handling, and that there were XX souls on board and something else I forgot. I wasn't working the radar position at the time, but I told my radar controller everything I was told. The CRJ checks on frequency and immediately gets the same questions... what's wrong... what do you need. A controller covering his butt. Where as it probably should have been handled differently on the check on... Roger, advice me if you need anything. (because the 3 requirements [callsign, nature, pilot desires] were already known).

Speed changes are not automatic. If you need me at 200 kts now, then you needed to ask me about 10-12 miles ago when I was doing 330.

Don't ask me to expedite my descent and then give me a speed reduction. It simply doesn't work that way.

Numerous 1,000-2,000 ft level-offs are annoying for both us and the passengers. We will slow our descents to a minimal rate to avoid all the power changes, level-offs, power changes etc...probably causing you more problems.

Quit giving taxi instructions while I'm doing 120 kts on the rollout....we're a little busy. I will either ignore you or make you repeat it anyway. Wait until we've slowed to taxi speed to give us taxi instruction.

If time allows, we always appreciate "expect" clearances. This allows us to plan our speed, descents, configuration changes, etc... ahead of time. Remember that we're usually flying around with little to no knowledge of what ATC's plan is. Especially at unfamiliar airports. A simple "expect lower in 10 miles" might help me make the decision to keep my speed up or slow to make configuration changes etc... to facilitate the rest of the descent.

Always remember we fly to many many different airports. You are intimately familiar with your airspace and local procedures.......we are not.

 

[Emmanuel Cardona]

I just turned 20 and recently decided that I want to an air traffic controller. I plan on doing this by doing the cti program for 2 years then joining the faa, but lately I've been hearing that the cti program is lousy and doesn't get you ready for the faa. what is the best way for me to become an atc? please help

 

[jcpilot]

I just turned 20 and recently decided that I want to an air traffic controller. I plan on doing this by doing the cti program for 2 years then joining the faa, but lately I've been hearing that the cti program is lousy and doesn't get you ready for the faa. what is the best way for me to become an atc? please help

If you don't want to go CTI, than the military is your only other option. The FAA won't be doing 'off the street' hiring again for some time.

If you have any other questions, there is an ATC forum here in the career-specific section.

 

[Emmanuel Cardona]

but say I do the CTI and get my certificate with flying colors and a recommendation within 2 years will the faa take me in? am I taking the right route to become an atc? oh and one more question what really is the starting salary for an atc ive been reading a lot of different responses. thank you all information is greatly appreciated

 

[genot]

Speed changes are not automatic. If you need me at 200 kts now, then you needed to ask me about 10-12 miles ago when I was doing 330.

Don't ask me to expedite my descent and then give me a speed reduction. It simply doesn't work that way.

Numerous 1,000-2,000 ft level-offs are annoying for both us and the passengers. We will slow our descents to a minimal rate to avoid all the power changes, level-offs, power changes etc...probably causing you more problems.

Quit giving taxi instructions while I'm doing 120 kts on the rollout....we're a little busy. I will either ignore you or make you repeat it anyway. Wait until we've slowed to taxi speed to give us taxi instruction.

If time allows, we always appreciate "expect" clearances. This allows us to plan our speed, descents, configuration changes, etc... ahead of time. Remember that we're usually flying around with little to no knowledge of what ATC's plan is. Especially at unfamiliar airports. A simple "expect lower in 10 miles" might help me make the decision to keep my speed up or slow to make configuration changes etc... to facilitate the rest of the descent.

Always remember we fly to many many different airports. You are intimately familiar with your airspace and local procedures.......we are not.

The 1,000 to 2,000 foot level offs are what keeps you number 5 instead of number 12 though. I don't like to level anyone off but sometimes its all you can do. I'm not going to get in the ear of another controller for the 45th time in an hour asking to use their airspace for lower. Also, if I don't get you down reference the next guy going down, the guy behind you may find himself way too high because I kept you up. Conversely, I could keep you higher longer, but now you need extra time to get down and you'll be going out longer. Long story short, I'm NOT giving up altitude if I'm vectoring you in tight. If the guy in front slows down (and yes when I assign a speed to 10 aircraft and one is 30 knots slower, I know you aren't playing by the rules, but its still my rear end on the line) or your whip it in tight I have no options.
What you want to do and what I think you want to do rarely mesh. I'll give PD descents when I'm dead and half of the guys will cram em down and the other half will dive bomb at the last second. There is no rhyme or reason to it.

If you want expect instructions tell me. Unless you're non professional GA or I've never heard your call sign I just assume you've been around the block a few times. Tell me its your first time in just like you'd ask for a progressive. If I were to say expect lower at XYZ 70% of the time I'd be telling a regular.

You're right though. Taxi instructions on roll out or speed AND decent expedites are just plain wrong. I will say though, minimal descents at say under 800 feet a minute on a 1,000-2,000 foot clearance tells me one thing. I don't know how this pilot works, but he's going down sloooooow. If there is a tie and the other pilot is bringing their ship down, you're behind them without a doubt. Expect to hear amend your altitude (or a brief thought of eh who cares, he's going behind) followed by the other plane diving under you and going first. This is all based on a TRACON guy working a final.

 

[sector15]

Genot is too nice. The 1,000 to 2,000 foot level offs are what keeps you number 5 instead of number 12 or you can expect the scenic route for spacing and if your a real pain you'll enjoy the penalty box.

 

[Boris Badenov]

If I didn't mention it earlier (can't be arsed to check), a fast turboprop (say, I dunno, for example an MU-2) can actually get to the end of the runway a LOT faster than a jet. Jets have trouble slowing down, not so with all that prop-drag out there to slow you down. So please, when you see FreightMonster 123 and LegacyCadillac 123 both 30 miles out, do not vector the heavy in first (presuming it's a turboprop that can do 250). Those guys are paid by the hour, and the freightdog will have finished unloading and be on his way home by the time the Jeeetttttttttt is on the ground. I say this as a current Jeeeetttttttt pilot.

 

[genot]

Sector15 I am a nice guy who is awaiting his downgrade, and Boris... A Cessna 402 goes in from of all jets if its me. Some members here know that. Let alone a Turbo Masher. Bring on the 1900's.

 

[KLB]

If I didn't mention it earlier (can't be arsed to check), a fast turboprop (say, I dunno, for example an MU-2) can actually get to the end of the runway a LOT faster than a jet. Jets have trouble slowing down, not so with all that prop-drag out there to slow you down. So please, when you see FreightMonster 123 and LegacyCadillac 123 both 30 miles out, do not vector the heavy in first (presuming it's a turboprop that can do 250). Those guys are paid by the hour, and the freightdog will have finished unloading and be on his way home by the time the Jeeetttttttttt is on the ground. I say this as a current Jeeeetttttttt pilot.

Preach it!

 

[Autothrust Blue]

That is really cool.
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From the piston side of things:
When I was flying the Baron back home in Omaha, I basically had a 50 mile-out plea for lower and "request that with the next controller" always put me in a bind. That switch to Omaha always happened at 40 miles, then I'm 35 miles out by the time Omaha allows me to come down.
Sure a Baron can get down faster, but not when following company procedure for pax comfort.
Basically the sooner you can start a non-pressurized thoroughbred like the Baron down-hill, the better. Obviously it is up to the pilot to recognize what he needs and request it, but when he does, it is because he can see he is going to get jammed up.

Piston stage cooling. (I think it is bunk, but I do it anyway because that is what company wants.) If I wasn't a piston pilot, I probably won't know anything about this, and it severely limits my ability to change speeds when arriving in the terminal area.
This also puts me in a bind when "max forward speed" is requested on approach. In pistons, most people are already doing their max forward speed, either due to stage cooling or being at maximum gear speed.
So if that is the case, and I'm already at my max forward speed or it is only going to get slower, do you want me to state that speed? I've always just acknowledged the request. Though i can see if I was a controller, I would want a hard number.

For the love of GOD, :yeahthat: Throw in some geared engines and ho boy, will we have problems if you don't give me a few miles to slow down. (In this case, penalty vectors may be required...)

 

[denver]

I fly a Cessna 421 and I think I speak for all the 421 drivers out there. Piston stage cooling is a myth but since these engines are geared you never want to let the props drive the engines. I cannot do power to idle descents if I want to keep my job in this airplane. So that means I have to descent smoking hot and if it is mod or greater turbulence in rough weather or strong Santa Ana's we need a descent from a long way out to keep it slow. In rough weather a 2 degree slope is ideal and anything over 4 degrees when it is calm means I have to put the gear down out of 10,000 feet and fly slow. I think most 421 drivers like 8000 feet at 30nm out as a target. I think alot of controllers think we a turbine, I get called conquest allot. If I were in a Conquest I could chop and drop but the Golden Eagle descent has to be meticulously planned to be shallow.

Thanks