Nick
Well-Known Member
No, I did not see this first-hand.
But those are facts from an FAA designee, two check airmen, and the pilot himself.
FAA "sitting in on checkride"
- Thread starter highalt41
- Start date
No, I did not see this first-hand.
But those are facts from an FAA designee, two check airmen, and the pilot himself.
DPE or Fed, they still have to adhere to the PTS for whatever checkride they're conducting. The only negative thing I'd see about having a Fed on board is that it might be more stressful for the person taking the ride. To be honest with you, I've never met a Fed who was out to bust anyone, and I think that any bad reputation they have has been generally blown way out of proportion by unreliable hear-say. That's just my opinion.
Nick
Well-Known Member
"He doesn't know it yet, but he already flunked."
- Actual quote from an FAA inspector about to do an initial CFI checkride to corporate pilot in the FBO lounge area, sipping his coffee gazing through the blinds at the ramp as the applicant tied down the airplane he just flew in for the checkride at PNE.
I'm not making this stuff up.
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
In brief terms, he ran afoul of a couple of FAA guys who decided to make their names by grounding a legend for no legitimate reason. It's the blackest of eyes on a federal agency of which I'm aware. (well, ok, let's forget about the ATF/FBI and Ruby Ridge/Waco...that doesn't even bear talking about it makes me so damn mad)
http://www.faa.gov/library/reports/medical/fasmb/editorials_jj/bobhoover/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Hoover
Again, as far as I can tell, what happened was for whatever reason (and let's remember, Hoover is renowned as the nicest guy in aviation...if it were Chuck "My ego fell off the shelf and broke my foot" Yeager, it might make sense) a couple of local FSDO apparatchiks decided to make their names by calling him senile. After the GA world got up in arms and it was apparent that he was flying just fine in the rest of the world, the FAA pulled in their horns, ate some crow, and reinstated his medical, although they effectively destroyed the airshow career of (apologies to the Right Stuff) the best pilot anyone has ever seen.
It's not that the FAA is evil, anymore than cops are evil. Most of them are doing a thankless job that needs to be done. With that said, you're a fool if you expose yourself to any more scrutiny than is absolutely required. Because you might get one of the 5%ers, which exist in any organization.
milleR
Well-Known Member
Nick, to be honest your stories are what give the Feds a bad name. I'm not one who looks forward to a ramp check, and I hate rides with the FSDO, but I've never had an unfair experience. And my guess is the majority of people on this site are in the same boat. Fact is, every district office is different with different people. The people with bad experiences always whine the loudest.
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
I agree with everything but the last sentence. Of course they whine the loudest, they were treated unfairly. Just as the 5%ers don't make the rest bad guys, the 95% who are fair don't erase the fact that you might get a 5%er. I've never been treated unfairly, but I know people who have. And the point is, simply, don't expose yourself to the potential to be treated unfairly if you can avoid it. It's not a blanket condemnation of the FAA (heck, I'd like for them to look HARDER at a lot of aviation), it's just a survival strategy for pilots.
Nick
Well-Known Member
I agree.
I had a very fair and reasonable time on my only checkride at a FSDO, my intial CFI exam. At the same time I was briefed that I would NOT under any circumstances take that checkride with a certain examiner, and if I saw the name down for my checkride I was to tell them I was ill. That came from the owner of the FBO I did my CFI training at, and my CFI instructor who had thousands upon thousands of hours (and I was his 101st CFI student).
So, while there are plenty of good, knowledgeable FAA employees out there, the bad apples do exist and the problem is they also have authority.
Again, just replying to the original question in this thread -- I see no advantages whatsoever to having the FAA observe one's checkride. Ideally the checkride would be the same as any other checkride but as we have seen in several replies on here, that is clearly not always the reality.
Cheyenne
Well-Known Member
Nothing good can come from a fed in the back seat. I canceled a checkride because of it. And I had a student cancel one too. Look, it's no secret that the feds are going to ride with students who are products of good CFIs. They ramp airplanes (90% of the time) that they think will be fine and they check operators that they know have their paperwork together. This way they can "check" the box and not do added paperwork. Don't get me started...
Reminds me of the current main job I do now. At best, you break even. You never really win. And the chances of losing are very high.
milleR
Well-Known Member
Yup, you're absolutely right. However, there is an advantage if you're a student, you can use the fed to get a free checkride. I've had several students in the past capitalize on this, but you need to know the territory both as an instructor and a student.
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
Turns out I'm not smart, either. Maybe lightly salted, though. I was disagreeing with the notion that the people with bad experiences are "whining". In my (limited) experience, they're generally just airing their righteous greivances. To be fair, you'll certainly run in to people who got pranged because they deserved it, but from what I've been able to discern, they are not in the majority. YMMV, etc etc.
PS. Perhaps I should expound. I remember watching a 210 get ramp checked. I had just pulled up in a 210 myself. The FAA guy walked up to me, asked for my license and medical, glanced at them, and walked away. When this other 210 came in, he had a comrade and they went over every inch of that plane with a fine-toothed comb. The difference? The other 210 was from a company that had recently had a crash. I'm about 90% certain that pilot got a violation or at the very least a letter for having "unsecured cargo". It happens that I had secured my cargo (not due to a slavish devotion to rules, but because I'd been bonked on the head a couple of times in thunderstorms by flying check-bags). That said, I would give you dollars to donuts that other pilots from my (former) company pulled in that night with unsecured cargo and didn't get pranged. Why do you imagine that might be? It's a political game, and the relative guilt or innocence of a pilot has just about nothing to do with it. Again, I don't blame the inspectors, they're getting a paycheck like the rest of us, and we should all be following all of the rules all of the time (I try, at least). That said, if they want to get you, they can. And in my experience, wanting to get you has just this side of nothing to do with how you're operating and everything to do with whether you "need to get got".
I say this with all good will towards the Inspectors, because, as I said before, I think most of them are doing a thankless job that ought to be done (perhaps ought to be done more): But do not engage yourself with the FAA if you can avoid it. At best you break even, at worst you lose. That's no kind of gamble.
Tram
Well-Known Member
I'd decline..
Most Feds I know are really cool guys, I'm just leery of the guy who can say "Welp, I'm gonna be needing that ticket now."
There was a kid who busted some ride, with a backseat fed, while I was at ATP for spilling oil into the cowling while adding oil.. He had to come back the next day pay $350 (or whatever it was) and put oil in a plane, without spilling..
I remember bits and pieces of a friend of mines student busting over something horribly stupid with a fed observer, but I can't remember what it was..
Then of course there was the guy who everyone knew was going to bust harder than anyone ever had, with just an examiner, let alone a fed, who passed with flying colors with a fed in the back.
Most Feds I know are really cool guys, I'm just leery of the guy who can say "Welp, I'm gonna be needing that ticket now."
There was a kid who busted some ride, with a backseat fed, while I was at ATP for spilling oil into the cowling while adding oil.. He had to come back the next day pay $350 (or whatever it was) and put oil in a plane, without spilling..
I remember bits and pieces of a friend of mines student busting over something horribly stupid with a fed observer, but I can't remember what it was..
Then of course there was the guy who everyone knew was going to bust harder than anyone ever had, with just an examiner, let alone a fed, who passed with flying colors with a fed in the back.
wrxpilot
New Member
That has not been my experience (out of the three I've personally dealt with). Like anything though, there are pricks everywhere and it only takes a couple to create a reputation.
wrxpilot
New Member
I nope you reported him then. If nothing else, at least to the applicant. If you didn't, then you're part of the problem. The FAA really is trying to crack down on these rogue inspectors now.
Bumblebee
Commodore
I had a fed observe during my instrument check ride. It was essentially the same feeling as the other four check rides I took with that examiner. Then, during the initial CFI ride at the FSDO I was hosed so bad I wrote a letter of complaint to the administrator of the FAA, the flight school I attended flew their Citation out to appeal and then pulled their CFI program from that location...ya just never know I guess. All that being said, I wouldn't have any problem letting a Fed observe.
Mike H
Well-Known Member
A ASI I know had a cap with the letters "FAA-Q" on it. He said "Read it like it's two words"
Thanks for all the info everybody.. I have been through the ringer with the FAA before on my initial years ago. Im not to worried about it just another checkride with "the man" in the back..Ill make sure I untie the tie downs before I hop in
Its not till Monday but ill be sure to inform everyone on how it goes and if the Fed even gives an input. But it is always good to know people inside the FAA that know me in case I do ever need them. Now will they help when I need them? hmm who knows but I hope I never will need them for anything. I feel like I should feel extra pressure but once again I really dont.. Maybe I will once I get there...
Its not till Monday but ill be sure to inform everyone on how it goes and if the Fed even gives an input. But it is always good to know people inside the FAA that know me in case I do ever need them. Now will they help when I need them? hmm who knows but I hope I never will need them for anything. I feel like I should feel extra pressure but once again I really dont.. Maybe I will once I get there...