Citation Roll

I know people that roll their money makers. I'm just waiting for the day that they become a 20 ft. smoking crater in the ground.
 
undflyboy06 said:
I know people that roll their money makers. I'm just waiting for the day that they become a 20 ft. smoking crater in the ground.
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This accident was not even the pilots' money maker- it belonged to someone else who trusted them to do the right thing. Depending on the number of aircraft owned by the "...involved air operator..." this may have been very expensive not even counting the hull loss and the loss of a crew if they had to carry out the recommended inspection of all aircraft for structural overload.
 
Some were mentioned, others I'd forgotten about. Most of these pilots took other people with them. I did not list the ones where they were drunk, but did list one where the pilot was using drugs. I tried not to include low level aerobatics when the pilot was by himself; also tried to exclude aerobatic airplanes. Did not include experimental airplanes.
It is what it is but sometimes the outcome is not so good.
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001211X12105&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20071119X01812&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20070427X00463&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20060705X00863&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001212X20685&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001211X11047&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001211X10415&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001208X07498&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001208X07397&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001207X04586&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001207X03213&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001207X02853&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001206X01091&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001211X13904&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001211X13725&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001211X12339&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001212X16616&key=1
 
Don't screw around with planes you're paid to fly and someone else is going to have to sign for with no idea what dumb crap you've done. Common courtesy. With that said, the FARs don't make the plane fly, and they don't prevent it from flying, either. Honestly, isn't this stuff common sense? The fact that you can do something doesn't mean you should. Likewise, the fact that someone says you shouldn't doesn't mean it's going to bite your face off if you do. I'm always mystified when we have these discussions.
 
Jimmy_Norton said:
Check out this •:

[video=youtube;FHFIUuhWpm4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHFIUuhWpm4[/video]
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Reminds me of a flight I once had. I was asked to demo a T210 to a Mexican pilot and his boss. Guy knows very little english, but I get across that we will climb to 500', then I will turn over the controls to him so he can take it up to altitude and check what he needs to on the airplane. I give the guy the controls at 500' and... he immediately pulls up and starts to do an aileron roll. Mind you, we're at climb out speed and 500'. I could not believe somone would try this low level, in a 210, with someone else's airplane, with a CFI he had only met 30 minutes prior.
 
I feel bad for the guys who think it's boring to fly the profile or how the company trained them to fly THEIR aircraft.

Sad.
 
surreal1221 said:
I feel bad for the guys who think it's boring to fly the profile or how the company trained them to fly THEIR aircraft.

Sad.
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Some pilots are perfectly happy flying in 2 1/2 dimensions others aren't. There's also a certain amount of satisfaction in having discipline and exercising good judgement. Just because you can, doesnt mean you should.

Personally, I go through serious withdrawals if I don't go upside-down. But you won't catch me doing it in a company airplane (unless it's intended for that purpose). It's not worth the consequences.
 
surreal1221 said:
I feel bad for the guys who think it's boring to fly the profile or how the company trained them to fly THEIR aircraft.

Sad.
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You don't think the provided profiles are boring? Guess what, they are boring, but they're SUPPOSED to be boring. Boring typically equals safe (though not all the time). Just because they're boring doesn't mean you throw them out.

(not that you disagree with this but)

Part of being a professional is adhering to procedure regardless of the entertainment value therein. There are times when you may have to deviate for safety reasons but by and large, a true professional is going to follow procedure even when it might be more fun to yank and bank.
 
ppragman said:
You don't think the provided profiles are boring? Guess what, they are boring, but they're SUPPOSED to be boring. Boring typically equals safe (though not all the time). Just because they're boring doesn't mean you throw them out.

(not that you disagree with this but)

Part of being a professional is adhering to procedure regardless of the entertainment value therein. There are times when you may have to deviate for safety reasons but by and large, a true professional is going to follow procedure even when it might be more fun to yank and bank.
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I think what he's saying is that it is: fun, enjoyable, satisfying, etc. (forms of entertainment, to the brain, not in the sense of "watching a comedy is entertainment)

fun, enjoyable, satisfying, entertaining to be able to fly the aircraft to the exacting standards set forth by your employer. It certainly gives me satisfaction to do so. I have never personally felt the desire to exceed the profiles/limitations in my CFM.
 
ppragman said:
You don't think the provided profiles are boring? Guess what, they are boring, but they're SUPPOSED to be boring. Boring typically equals safe (though not all the time). Just because they're boring doesn't mean you throw them out.

(not that you disagree with this but)

Part of being a professional is adhering to procedure regardless of the entertainment value therein. There are times when you may have to deviate for safety reasons but by and large, a true professional is going to follow procedure even when it might be more fun to yank and bank.
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Of course...

You're going to have a tough time making the argument that rolling a transport category aircraft, or an aircraft where it specifically says aerobatics are prohibited is in any way an excuse to deviate for safety reasons.

Not that YOU are making that argument, but it would appear some around here might try to go down that road.

That said, like Rex said, my point was that we shouldn't be experimenting with someone else's equipment (specifically transport aircraft or those where aerobatics are prohibited) that are used to generate revenue. Fly the profile. Yeah, some may think it's boring to fly the way the company expects you...but it's not too much to ask.
 
surreal1221 said:
Of course...

You're going to have a tough time making the argument that rolling a transport category aircraft, or an aircraft where it specifically says aerobatics are prohibited is in any way an excuse to deviate for safety reasons.

Not that YOU are making that argument, but it would appear some around here might try to go down that road.

That said, like Rex said, my point was that we shouldn't be experimenting with someone else's equipment (specifically transport aircraft or those where aerobatics are prohibited) that are used to generate revenue. Fly the profile. Yeah, some may think it's boring to fly the way the company expects you...but it's not too much to ask.
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heh, I might be accused of such...

I said at the beginning that the video isn't enough evidence to "hang" the pilot for doing something illegal/stupid...

since someone pointed out that the operating handbook for that aircraft limits flying aerobatics, I'd say, yeah, not smart...
 
Hacker15e said:
I was wondering the same thing myself.

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1362599_02bcdea730.jpg
 
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