Stepping stones...

[granlistillo]

Why not log it? You've already said why, it's of limited usefulness.

If you do it in a separate column in a e logbook, and print out without that column or not. Depending on what you are looking for. As he pointed out, it may be helpful for some to get an unrestricted ATP. It may be useful for insurance requirements. It may be a requirement for a FAA job.

You make a very valid point, as he does. People should know their audience. E log books can be tailored in a lot of ways.
I would have a very different looking resume sif I was going for a defense job, corporate job, flying job, or a military job. Not one lie would be told, but I wouldn't be spend half a page breaking down flight time for a non flying job.

 

[Polar742]

In regards to logging, I think logging PIC is verboten.

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-

(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;

(ii) When the pilot is the sole occupant in the aircraft;

(iii) When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted; or

(iv) When the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a qualified pilot in command provided—

(A) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command holds a commercial or airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft being flown, if a class rating is appropriate;

(B) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command is undergoing an approved pilot in command training program that includes ground and flight training on the following areas of operation—

( 1 ) Preflight preparation;

( 2 ) Preflight procedures;

( 3 ) Takeoff and departure;

( 4 ) In-flight maneuvers;

( 5 ) Instrument procedures;

( 6 ) Landings and approaches to landings;

( 7 ) Normal and abnormal procedures;

( 8 ) Emergency procedures; and

( 9 ) Postflight procedures;

(C) The supervising pilot in command holds—

( 1 ) A commercial pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate, and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category, class, and type of aircraft being flown, if a class or type rating is required; or

( 2 ) An airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category, class, and type of aircraft being flown, if a class or type rating is required; and

(D) The supervising pilot in command logs the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook, certifies the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook and attests to that certification with his or her signature, and flight instructor certificate number.

(2) If rated to act as pilot in command of the aircraft, an airline transport pilot may log all flight time while acting as pilot in command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.

My argument is that unless you are in an approved PIC training program as described under (iii), you can't log PIC.

To make it more clear even is the last bit under (2) that I bolded right at the end pretty much sums it all up.

Even I, the mighty ACARS specialist who plays PIC while the real PIC is asleep can't log it, even though I'm left in charge of the helm. (You can replace "I" with the name of any of my far better looking and more qualified colleagues).


To the OP; the stepping stone idea is no bueno in my book. More because you never know where the merry-go-round stops and where you'll end up. Ask the 10,000-20,000 hour FOs I saw after 9/11.

 

[lisboa]

My friend instructed in El Monte about 1000 hours then flew the caravan for new mexico airlines for a year, he is now on the 767 for hawaiin ailines. He is 24!

 

[dasleben]

My friend instructed in El Monte about 1000 hours then flew the caravan for new mexico airlines for a year, he is now on the 767 for hawaiin ailines. He is 24!

opcorn:

(If anyone doesn't catch that, New Mexico Airlines is part of Pacific Wings )

 

[ZapBrannigan]

the stepping stone idea is no bueno in my book. More because you never know where the merry-go-round stops and where you'll end up. Ask the 10,000-20,000 hour FOs I saw after 9/11.

As is so often the case, posts by Polar for some reason make me feel like I need to inject my own opinion.

So, first and foremost, I agree with the others in this thread who have suggested that you only log PIC when you, in fact, sign for the aircraft. I hate it... because I have literally THOUSANDS of hours in airplanes that I am type-rated in... and that I was sole manipulator of the controls of... but in which I was SIC. Life would have been much, much easier over the last decade or so had I actually had a few thousand hours of PIC turbine in the 737. <shrug>

The folks that matter are looking for PIC time defined by signing for the airplane, and actually functioning in that command role.

Secondly, I agree with Polar with regard to the stepping stone idea. You know, it is very easy to be a Monday morning quarterback. I do it often (usually second guessing my own career choices). But as I'm so frequently reminded on this board, you make the best choices you can with the information you have at the time. So when I (for example) as a Jetstream 3100 first officer had the opportunity to apply for a job as a DC9 first officer... I took it. It was a pay raise, better airplane, better quality of life. Why wait for some unknown period of time to upgrade? And then fly for some arbitrary number of hours beyond upgrade to apply? If I was unqualified they would let me know by not hiring me. So I took the job as a DC9 first officer. When the opportunity arose to fly for a major airline rather than accept recall to an LCC... I took it. There was no PIC turbine qualification. The major paid more, had a better quality of life, and was (at the time) the "brass ring". So why not?

Now during the 4 or 5 years that all of this was taking place airlines were raising their qualifications very quietly in the background. Suddenly 1000 TPIC wasn't the exception... it was the rule. So as Polar indicated, after 9/11 all of us first officers (some with 10,000 to 20,000 TT) were suddenly in the unenviable position of finding ourselves no longer qualified to even APPLY for an equitable job.

Here's a bit of irony. I was not even qualified to RE-APPLY for a company that I had WORKED FOR just three years earlier?!?!?!!! Crazy huh?

I recognize that this makes me sound a bit disingenuous because I'm among the crowd here that attacks low time flight instructors who want to rush to the first CRJ seat they can find without "paying their dues" as a CFI or a freight dog. There's not much difference between the two scenarios.

I will tell you this -- (you being the folks who are considering skipping the stepping stones) -- the hardest part of my career from the pride and self-worth standpoint was sitting in class to become a turboprop first officer ... with 21 year old classmates ... after having been a major airline pilot for several years. Really made me feel like trash. So if you're going to skip stepping stones give it some good hard thought. That said, just because it didn't work out for me doesn't mean it won't for you... so don't look a gift horse in the mouth either. Winning the lottery is winning the lottery. Who cares how you got the money? You're still rich. Right?

And finally, it's not the end of the world if you gamble and lose. Every pilot who I was laid off with in 2002 is back flying again. Some went back to the major. Others are flying for some fantastic corporate flight departments, some went to other majors, some made careers at overseas airlines, freight airlines, fractionals, or even at the regionals. So nobody is going hungry.

So, I guess with some thought and a lot of rambling, my advice is... what have you got to lose? Roll the dice and see what fate has in store for you. You only live once.