Fly for Great Lakes?

[jhugz]

Yeah, Lakes is the bad guy. Just if Lakes went away, it would all be peaches and cream.
American would probably call me directly.
I hear they love my single pilot CRM skilz.

If you can pull Lakes off, rock that .

If low paying regionals do go away, it will be better for the rest of the industry. Lets just say a friend of mine's company who flies boxes, just lost a couple routes to another cargo company because their pilots make close to half what ours does. There overhead isn't any cheaper, they can't fly the route cheaper, they can only undercut with pay. Then what happens when the next company comes around and decides to pay their pilots 25% less, to win the routes. The race to the bottom continues, don't be a part of it. It maybe a lost cause to fight the stupidity of McDonald's wages instead of professional wages, however I'm not going to contribute to the race, lost cause or not. With all the information out there people are still willing to chase the "quick" upgrade in hopes for that coveted PIC time. Whatever, beating a dead horse yet again, just hated the kool-aid drinking I saw in this thread.

 

[Douglas]

Your lost routes sucks, but who's routes is Lakes taking? If you ask me Lakes is one of the career paths you can take without adding to the regional problem.
A 1900 does not take a CRJ-7/900 route, but a CRJ does take a DC-9 route. Take your measly pay, eat your ramen and move on from Lakes. You aren't affecting anybody else, so why do all these people care?

Commuter airlines have a history of pay being horrible. Lakes didn't invent lower wages on the commuter level to undercut people, the rest of the commuter community got jets and left Lakes.

I agree that there has been a lot of Lakes talk on here and it is getting old.
"Do it." "Don't do it"...But when somebody gets a shiny RJ, it ain't anything but backrubs and high-fives.
Give me a break peeps.
We've been down this road...two threads ago.

 

[jhugz]

Your lost routes sucks, but who's routes is Lakes taking? If you ask me Lakes is one of the career paths you can take without adding to the regional problem.

The loss of routes is not the point I'm trying to get across. It's the willingness to fly for next to nothing just for the possibility of quick turbine PIC. Lakes knows this and exploits their workforce.

 

[Douglas]

I wish some old school dogs would pipe up and tell us how much they made flying the Navajo as a FO Commuter so we could compare. I don't have anything hard to base this on except from talking to old timers, but I believe commuter pilots and especially FOs have always made next to nothing; it's just that Lakes is one of the few left around.

 

[mshunter]

The loss of routes is not the point I'm trying to get across. It's the willingness to fly for next to nothing just for the possibility of quick turbine PIC. Lakes knows this and exploits their workforce.

Well James, some of us are, ya know, like living in the land of opportunity out here in Kalifornia! So working for Lakes is like totally lame! Just look in the thread and you will see how fortunate I am for living out here in SoCal because it's like so full of opportunity!
(do I need the tag?)

I don't live in So-Cal like your righteous self so sorry that there isn't boatloads of opportunity underneath Bravo airspace for me.

Did I forget to mention I might be moving to either Addison or St. Louis. Stupid me. I am leaving all this boatload of opportunity behind!

 

[Polar742]

Funny thing is my first year salary as a piston captain I make more then a +5 year E-120 captain, our upgrade to turbine in comparable equipment a 19 seat turboprop and comparable upgrade times. Same flight time -CRM and I double your captain salary, plus like other's have said, if the market is anything like it is today when you're looking at jumping ship I guarantee you the 1900 PIC is not going to cut it, unless they got desperate. Right now Kalitta won't look at you w/o jet time, I don't think Atlas/Polar will either, and I doubt the Legacies will unless you have damn good internals. Before everyone gets up in arms I'm sure there are exemptions to the rules. Have fun trying to live in Denver on that salary.

There are lots of pilots here that were 1900 pilots immediately prior to this job. Gotta keep it in school man.

I wish some old school dogs would pipe up and tell us how much they made flying the Navajo as a FO Commuter so we could compare. I don't have anything hard to base this on except from talking to old timers, but I believe commuter pilots and especially FOs have always made next to nothing; it's just that Lakes is one of the few left around.

We all know that all pilots are underpaid. I don't see why if a job doesn't fit you, it bothers you. You don't hear me bagging on pilots at other ACMI outfits that don't make near (as in 1/2) as what I do. Nor do you hear UPS pilots bag on me for not making near (about 1/2) of what they do, do you? It's time to grow up a bit.

I don't know anyone that flew Navajos, but I know someone who flew at Britt as an FO on a metro for 6 mos before upgrading to CA there. As a FO, I want to say he was making around $1000/mo. At CHQ, in 1998 when I started, J31 CAs were making from about $32/hr (fourth year CA) to $54/hr top of scale. We almost went broke flying turboprops on our routes, which were a combination of yield flying and EAS. The economics weren't that different than Lakes today.

There are many ways to skin the cat. Bagging on people isn't the way to do it. There's a reason that there aren't Lakers, and pilots from some other airlines, posting on here. There seems to be a group that has the answers but no experience. There's a time to listen and learn instead of popoff at the mouth.

Each and every one of us on here has dreams and aspirations. If a person has done their diligence and finds that working at XYZ airlines is OK, then so be it. It doesn't mean that they are rich or spoiled. Maybe they worked side jobs to put themselves in this position. Maybe they are rich and can still take the job. I know my parents weren't rich, but they scrapped and saved to put me through school (which included my ratings). Obviously, someone with family or debt obligations might need to take a different route.

To make a blanket statement about an airline or industry you know little about is ignorant and rude at best. I passed on to Ben the user name of one of our fellow JC'ers who's a Lakes captain to support his quest. Isn't that what we're here to do? Help?

 

[jhugz]

There are lots of pilots here that were 1900 pilots immediately prior to this job. Gotta keep it in school man.

I thought you said Jet time was required, I was wrong though. I do know for a fact that jet time is required at Kalitta.

We all know that all pilots are underpaid. I don't see why if a job doesn't fit you, it bothers you. You don't hear me bagging on pilots at other ACMI outfits that don't make near (as in 1/2) as what I do. Nor do you hear UPS pilots bag on me for not making near (about 1/2) of what they do, do you? It's time to grow up a bit.

I don't know anyone that flew Navajos, but I know someone who flew at Britt as an FO on a metro for 6 mos before upgrading to CA there. As a FO, I want to say he was making around $1000/mo. At CHQ, in 1998 when I started, J31 CAs were making from about $32/hr (fourth year CA) to $54/hr top of scale. We almost went broke flying turboprops on our routes, which were a combination of yield flying and EAS. The economics weren't that different than Lakes today.

There are many ways to skin the cat. Bagging on people isn't the way to do it. There's a reason that there aren't Lakers, and pilots from some other airlines, posting on here. There seems to be a group that has the answers but no experience. There's a time to listen and learn instead of popoff at the mouth.

Each and every one of us on here has dreams and aspirations. If a person has done their diligence and finds that working at XYZ airlines is OK, then so be it. It doesn't mean that they are rich or spoiled. Maybe they worked side jobs to put themselves in this position. Maybe they are rich and can still take the job. I know my parents weren't rich, but they scrapped and saved to put me through school (which included my ratings). Obviously, someone with family or debt obligations might need to take a different route.

To make a blanket statement about an airline or industry you know little about is ignorant and rude at best. I passed on to Ben the user name of one of our fellow JC'ers who's a Lakes captain to support his quest. Isn't that what we're here to do? Help?

Usually I try to listen when you talk Martin but I absolutely think you're wrong. Your logic is that low paying jobs don't affect you, if you don't like the job don't take it. In a perfect world I guess this would work however, what is going to happen next time you go to negotiate your contract and management comes back w/ pay cuts across the board because Kalitta, Evergreen, & Omni Pilots do your job for less? If these companies can get away with paying their pilots $X, why can't they also. I'll give you a perfect example, Commutair. Commutair pilots are already the lowest paid pilots on their equipment w/ terrible workrules. They're working hard to negotiate their first contract under ALPA and management comes at them w/ pay cuts across the board. Management knows the upgrade time is relatively short as it stands, and feels it can get away with paying their pilots less. The only 121 pilots that get paid less is Gulfstream, I wonder where they came up w/ this idear?

 

[Copperhed51]

I have talked to over two dozen pilots who work for GL right now with a majority having started within the last 18 months. Of that 24 - 19 of em are sitting left seat. So cut the "rapid upgrade is a trap" crap everyone who doesn't like Lakes regurgitates.

I work at Lakes and I can guarantee you that this statement is completely untrue. I have been there for around 23 months and I'm still waiting on upgrade. Either you were lied to or you're fabricating numbers to make things sound better than they are.

 

[Polar742]

I thought you said Jet time was required, I was wrong though. I do know for a fact that jet time is required at Kalitta.

Because that's the requirement today, it doesn't mean it is tomorrow.

Usually I try to listen when you talk Martin but I absolutely think you're wrong. Your logic is that low paying jobs don't affect you, if you don't like the job don't take it. In a perfect world I guess this would work however, what is going to happen next time you go to negotiate your contract and management comes back w/ pay cuts across the board because Kalitta, Evergreen, & Omni Pilots do your job for less? If these companies can get away with paying their pilots $X, why can't they also. I'll give you a perfect example, Commutair. Commutair pilots are already the lowest paid pilots on their equipment w/ terrible workrules. They're working hard to negotiate their first contract under ALPA and management comes at them w/ pay cuts across the board. Management knows the upgrade time is relatively short as it stands, and feels it can get away with paying their pilots less. The only 121 pilots that get paid less is Gulfstream, I wonder where they came up w/ this idear?

That's false logic. Can arbitrators take pay away during a bankruptcy process? Absolutely.

That's not the case in either instance. Since our pay numbers aren't public, I can't give examples. Let's use Omni for an example. I make more than one of their top-of-scale FOs. However with my new CBA rates, I am still going to get a pay increase.

Now, let's talk your red-herring commutair vs. gulfstream argument. In RLA negotiations, you are under no obligation to vote YES on a bad deal. If a deal is disapproved, you can go to self help and strike. That is up to the pilot group to get a good deal. If Amerijet can have a successful strike, I'm sure commutair can as well.

 

[jhugz]

Because that's the requirement today, it doesn't mean it is tomorrow.




That's false logic. Can arbitrators take pay away during a bankruptcy process? Absolutely.

That's not the case in either instance. Since our pay numbers aren't public, I can't give examples. Let's use Omni for an example. I make more than one of their top-of-scale FOs. However with my new CBA rates, I am still going to get a pay increase.

Now, let's talk your red-herring commutair vs. gulfstream argument. In RLA negotiations, you are under no obligation to vote YES on a bad deal. If a deal is disapproved, you can go to self help and strike. That is up to the pilot group to get a good deal. If Amerijet can have a successful strike, I'm sure commutair can as well.

What about all the lost funds of a fair contract along w/ any funds lost during the strike process? Is that fair? If this long drawn out negotiating process didn't occur then more funds would be in those pilots pocket.

 

[Douglas]

We all know that all pilots are underpaid. I don't see why if a job doesn't fit you, it bothers you. You don't hear me bagging on pilots at other ACMI outfits that don't make near (as in 1/2) as what I do. Nor do you hear UPS pilots bag on me for not making near (about 1/2) of what they do, do you? It's time to grow up a bit.

Dude, did you quote me because you think I'm "bagging" on Lakers?

I don't know how you came to that conclusion. I jumped into this thread because everybody bags on them and I'm tired of it.

Since you're here now, I'll jump out.

 

[SteveC]

There are lots of pilots here that were 1900 pilots immediately prior to this job. Gotta keep it in school man.



We all know that all pilots are underpaid. I don't see why if a job doesn't fit you, it bothers you. You don't hear me bagging on pilots at other ACMI outfits that don't make near (as in 1/2) as what I do. Nor do you hear UPS pilots bag on me for not making near (about 1/2) of what they do, do you? It's time to grow up a bit.

I don't know anyone that flew Navajos, but I know someone who flew at Britt as an FO on a metro for 6 mos before upgrading to CA there. As a FO, I want to say he was making around $1000/mo. At CHQ, in 1998 when I started, J31 CAs were making from about $32/hr (fourth year CA) to $54/hr top of scale. We almost went broke flying turboprops on our routes, which were a combination of yield flying and EAS. The economics weren't that different than Lakes today.

There are many ways to skin the cat. Bagging on people isn't the way to do it. There's a reason that there aren't Lakers, and pilots from some other airlines, posting on here. There seems to be a group that has the answers but no experience. There's a time to listen and learn instead of popoff at the mouth.

Each and every one of us on here has dreams and aspirations. If a person has done their diligence and finds that working at XYZ airlines is OK, then so be it. It doesn't mean that they are rich or spoiled. Maybe they worked side jobs to put themselves in this position. Maybe they are rich and can still take the job. I know my parents weren't rich, but they scrapped and saved to put me through school (which included my ratings). Obviously, someone with family or debt obligations might need to take a different route.

To make a blanket statement about an airline or industry you know little about is ignorant and rude at best. I passed on to Ben the user name of one of our fellow JC'ers who's a Lakes captain to support his quest. Isn't that what we're here to do? Help?

I'm with you Martin. I really don't understand the attempt to stigmatize pilots that accept entry level jobs with entry level wages. I was in my mid-40's when I left a well paying career to take a full time job flying piston twins Part 135 for pay in the low-to-mid $20K range. I was married with two step-sons who were just a couple of years away from entering college. I knew what I was getting into when I did it, I accepted what the risks were going to be, I planned out how I was going to make the career switch, I had my escape plans in place, and I did it all with my eyes wide open. I don't feel any regret at all, nor do I agree that people that go to work for companies like Lakes should do so either.

If others want to change the way the industry works, more power to them. If they think that bullying people away from low paying, entry level jobs is the way to do so, well, I don't agree with those tactics.

 

[A150K]

I'm with you Martin. I really don't understand the attempt to stigmatize pilots that accept entry level jobs with entry level wages. I was in my mid-40's when I left a well paying career to take a full time job flying piston twins Part 135 for pay in the low-to-mid $20K range. I was married with two step-sons who were just a couple of years away from entering college. I knew what I was getting into when I did it, I accepted what the risks were going to be, I planned out how I was going to make the career switch, I had my escape plans in place, and I did it all with my eyes wide open. I don't feel any regret at all, nor do I agree that people that go to work for companies like Lakes should do so either.

If others want to change the way the industry works, more power to them. If they think that bullying people away from low paying, entry level jobs is the way to do so, well, I don't agree with those tactics.

I agree. You gotta start somewhere...I can't help but notice that it is the pilots in my age range doing the bullying (20s). Would I personally take a job flying for GL at the current pay rates? Hell to the no, I don't care how much turbine time I would get out of it. Though, it is not my job to tell others where to go, they will learn on their own terms what is good and what is bad.

 

[pilotbry]

If others want to change the way the industry works, more power to them. If they think that bullying people away from low paying, entry level jobs is the way to do so, well, I don't agree with those tactics.

Absolutely agree with this statement. I've pretty much stayed out of this argument on JC but it has irked me since I joined. It seems like an awful lot of employed pilots passing judgement on unemployed pilots who have every bit as much right to pursue their chosen profession. I kind of thought JC was pilots helping pilots. It feels like pilots looking out for themselves. This is the USA and we have to take the good and bad of capitalism. Like every (deregulated) industry it is driven by supply, demand, competition and affected by corporate AND consumer greed. You want to blame a guy for trying to get a job? Why don't you quit your job at XYZ regional for the good of the industry because you don't make as much money as the major guy? And then that guy is bringing down the industry because he's not making Fedex money? How about we blame our brothers, sisters, friends and grandma for getting online to try and pick an airfare because it's a dollar cheaper than the next airline. This is the same ridiculous logic behind demonizing individual Mexicans for crossing the border and blaming him/her for the problem of illegal immigration when it is the system that fosters the problem. I absolutely agree that what pilots are paid at that level is absurd but is any regional paying acceptable money? I am thankful for my job because even though the money ain't stellar, I personally can't afford to fly for a regional. But painting a guy as an idiot or a traitor for choosing to work at a low paying job as opposed to remaining unemployed or finding a different career is nauseatingly arrogant and self-serving misplaced anger. Just my $.02.

 

[jhugz]

Whatever we can do this same crap w/ Keylime and the JC crowd doesn't give a damn but insult a regional airline, o the noz. I should have seen this coming a mile away.

 

[ChasenSFO]

Whatever we can do this same crap w/ Keylime and the JC crowd doesn't give a damn but insult a regional airline, o the noz. I should have seen this coming a mile away.

That's funny, because I have a good buddy who is a Metro CA at Keylime and he makes close to twice as much as some regional captains logging TPIC and he's home every night with weekends off. Plus he never bitches much about the company.

I know Keylime has the pay to play and the somewhat shady contract for new-hires where you owe a bunch of money if you get fired for any reason as a new-hire, but for some reason they have a way worse wrap than the other 135 companies when people there seem pretty happy.

 

[jhugz]

That's funny, because I have a good buddy who is a Metro CA at Keylime and he makes close to twice as much as some regional captains logging TPIC and he's home every night with weekends off. Plus he never bitches much about the company.

We have a mutual friend.

I know Keylime has the pay to play and the somewhat shady contract for new-hires where you owe a bunch of money if you get fired for any reason as a new-hire, but for some reason they have a way worse wrap than the other 135 companies when people there seem pretty happy.

You can't fault Keylime for the pay to play when Amflight has the same exact thing and you never hear anyone on her complaining about it. Is this because there are quite a few Amflight pilots on here and no Keylime pilots? Possibly. The contract does suck in the piston, but in the turbine equipment where they have to type you it's completely understandable.

 

[spasekace]

We have a mutual friend.

I guess a few of us do!

 

[ChasenSFO]

Yep, not a whole lot of Keylime pilots on here seeing as they all get chased off by angry mobs.

 

[jhugz]

I guess a few of us do!

He's reading this thread incognito but I hope you asked him those questions from our last conversation. From what I heard, he's a lifer now.