Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight schools

[Boris Badenov]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

You learn by doing. The guy who went to a puppymill had a "dispatch" to tell him what he couldn't do. The guy who wore a sweatstained polo had none. He was put in the horrible position of exercising, eh, what is it? "Judgment?" Puppymills teach you how to fly when things go according to the syllabus. 61 teaches you how to fly. What is the old saw? "No plan survives first contact with the Enemy". I genuinely pity the graduates of the mills who think every answer is on a checklist somewhere, cause they're gonna kill somebody sooner or later, and if they're really unlucky, it might not even be themselves. Single pilot freight to Jeeeeeeettttttttt El Capitan, the hardest headwork I ever did in flying was deciding whether to sign Joe-Bob Briggs off for his student solo. I learned something from that, and it wasn't that 10 knot crosswinds are DAAAANNNNNGEROUS.

 

[dasleben]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

You learn by doing. The guy who went to a puppymill had a "dispatch" to tell him what he couldn't do. The guy who wore a sweatstained polo had none. He was put in the horrible position of exercising, eh, what is it? "Judgment?" Puppymills teach you how to fly when things go according to the syllabus. 61 teaches you how to fly. What is the old saw? "No plan survives first contact with the Enemy". I genuinely pity the graduates of the mills who think every answer is on a checklist somewhere, cause they're gonna kill somebody sooner or later, and if they're really unlucky, it might not even be themselves. Single pilot freight to Jeeeeeeettttttttt El Capitan, the hardest headwork I ever did in flying was deciding whether to sign Joe-Bob Briggs off for his student solo. I learned something from that, and it wasn't that 10 knot crosswinds are DAAAANNNNNGEROUS.

It's true to an extent. The flight supervisors at the big schools can really put a damper on things. I remember being so frustrated when they'd shut down the operation when there was a thunderstorm 25 miles away. Unfortunately, many pilots who learned and then taught in that environment have never seen anything outside of that small operating envelope. But, I also am a product of a big-name 141 environment and I've done fine. At this point I'm much more a product of the companies I've flown for professionally after flight instruction; the 200ish hours I spent in school don't even come into play. It all works out in the end.

 

[rjmore]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

Blackhawk...

Just from reading your posts and assuming you are dealing with the students in the same manner, I have a word you may want to look into.

Tact (noun): A keen sense of what to say or do to avoid giving offense; skill in dealing with difficult or delicate situations.

 

[Blackhawk]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

Blackhawk...

Just from reading your posts and assuming you are dealing with the students in the same manner, I have a word you may want to look into.

Tact (noun): A keen sense of what to say or do to avoid giving offense; skill in dealing with difficult or delicate situations.

I don't believe in yelling and try to use humor in the cockpit. But if the pilot wants a warm and fuzzy they can take a blanket with them to hold onto.

 

[Blackhawk]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

Did not mean this as a slam on 141 in general. I've flown with some fantastic pilots trained under 141. I've known some 61 CFIs who I would not trust with the keys to my 10 year old car with 200000 miles. It's a slam on poor technique. If you are holding the yoke all the time it often masks aircraft problems such as poor rigging and usually leads to pilots trying to hold the yoke firmly. Even in turbulance most airplanes and gliders will right themselves after a bump; even some helicopters that has a SAS/FPS will do this as well.

 

[rjmore]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

I don't believe in yelling and try to use humor in the cockpit. But if the pilot wants a warm and fuzzy they can take a blanket with them to hold onto.

You and your blanket LOL

I think you will find most guys will agree with you to a certain extent but the way you present your argument immediately gets their defenses ready to strike back. I'm very much like you so it doesn't bother me but a lot of people aren't like us and then the learning stops. Sometimes if you want to get through to them you have to take a different approach. Remember they don't learn in your style, they learn in their own way so if it isn't sinking in then you will have to get through. That's your job as an instructor and I have no doubt you are a very good one. Even in this thread, there are a lot of guys that agree with you but if they don't agree 100% exactly like you then they all need a blanket. The students in question aren't seeming to respond so obviously something isn't working. Try to see things from there perspective and maybe you will get through to them.

FWIW, I went to ERAU DAB and one of the first things I was taught was not to put a death grip on the yoke. Could it be that they are nervous about the type aircraft and this is the way it is manifesting itself?

 

[tgrayson]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

Even in turbulance most airplanes and gliders will right themselves after a bump;

Well, no, not even in theory, since stability doesn't mean that airplanes will right themselves. Regardless, all airplanes are spirally unstable, which is a lateral/directional problem, and longitudinal stability only requires that the airplane return to its trimmed AoA. Even that won't necessarily return an airplane to its original airspeed without an unpleasant phugoid. And none of that implies that an aircraft will return to its heading, altitude, or bank attitude, which is what we normally control the yoke in order to achieve.

In anything other than completely still air, taking the hand off the yoke for other than a few seconds will bring about altitude or heading deviations. And leaning back and reaching into the back seat will change the CG location enough in small planes to produce a climb even in still air.

Solving a death grip problem by removing the hands from yoke entirely is going from one extreme to another, when there are intermediate techniques that work well.

 

[Ziggyfuzz]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

I agree, if you try to be a hero, do everything at once, and hold onto the yoke you'll probably put her in.

What about, do one thing at a time in an orderly and efficient fashion, while holding onto the yoke?

Just wondering if any of you have actually tried the "hands off" technique in actual IMC other than easy so cal layers? I agree that hands off should apply 90% of the time if you have a good understanding of the relationship between AOA/Power and trim technique. However, in turbulent IMC you have to keep a hand on, scan, and set radios. I also wonder why we teach a single pilot IFR guy to brief an approach. A Human Factors study and case would tell us all that this is a bad idea. THe brief is meant for a multi crew environment. A single pilot could do a brief for imprinting purposes only if a good autopilot is available. I have also experienced guys with good autopilot's really botch things up when it comes to SA, becuase the autopilot allows their brains to somewhat disengage from the picture. I'm not talking airline pilots here, I'm talking GA guys.

 

[Ziggyfuzz]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

I agree, if you try to be a hero, do everything at once, and hold onto the yoke you'll probably put her in.

What about, do one thing at a time in an orderly and efficient fashion, while holding onto the yoke?

I have nothing against any school. I have something against poor technique and poor teaching. Well duh. If you need to hold the yoke, hold it. If the airplane is stable and you are not scanning, let go of the yoke. Holding the yoke while doing something other than scanning is silly and shows insecurity. Get a blanket if you need one.

:yeahthat:

 

[Ziggyfuzz]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

I agree, if you try to be a hero, do everything at once, and hold onto the yoke you'll probably put her in.

What about, do one thing at a time in an orderly and efficient fashion, while holding onto the yoke?

Well, no, not even in theory, since stability doesn't mean that airplanes will right themselves. Regardless, all airplanes are spirally unstable, which is a lateral/directional problem, and longitudinal stability only requires that the airplane return to its trimmed AoA. Even that won't necessarily return an airplane to its original airspeed without an unpleasant phugoid. And none of that implies that an aircraft will return to its heading, altitude, or bank attitude, which is what we normally control the yoke in order to achieve.

In anything other than completely still air, taking the hand off the yoke for other than a few seconds will bring about altitude or heading deviations. And leaning back and reaching into the back seat will change the CG location enough in small planes to produce a climb even in still air.

Solving a death grip problem by removing the hands from yoke entirely is going from one extreme to another, when there are intermediate techniques that work well.

Great post man...! I like to demonstrate this grip as one who holds a cup of hot tea, snobbishly so, with a pinky up in the air and don't spill it!!

 

[Blackhawk]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

Well, no, not even in theory, since stability doesn't mean that airplanes will right themselves. Regardless, all airplanes are spirally unstable, which is a lateral/directional problem, and longitudinal stability only requires that the airplane return to its trimmed AoA. Even that won't necessarily return an airplane to its original airspeed without an unpleasant phugoid. And none of that implies that an aircraft will return to its heading, altitude, or bank attitude, which is what we normally control the yoke in order to achieve.

In anything other than completely still air, taking the hand off the yoke for other than a few seconds will bring about altitude or heading deviations. And leaning back and reaching into the back seat will change the CG location enough in small planes to produce a climb even in still air.

Solving a death grip problem by removing the hands from yoke entirely is going from one extreme to another, when there are intermediate techniques that work well.

I have seen few airplanes that are very "spirally" unstable - the Bonanza being one of them. No, they won't return to the intial heading or altitude, but if you set an airplane straight and level it will normally right itself after small bumps. Again, not advocating flying hands off at all times, but there is no point in holding the yoke if you are not doing the first step in instrument flying- scanning.

 

[Blackhawk]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

Just wondering if any of you have actually tried the "hands off" technique in actual IMC other than easy so cal layers? I agree that hands off should apply 90% of the time if you have a good understanding of the relationship between AOA/Power and trim technique. However, in turbulent IMC you have to keep a hand on, scan, and set radios. I also wonder why we teach a single pilot IFR guy to brief an approach. A Human Factors study and case would tell us all that this is a bad idea. THe brief is meant for a multi crew environment. A single pilot could do a brief for imprinting purposes only if a good autopilot is available. I have also experienced guys with good autopilot's really botch things up when it comes to SA, becuase the autopilot allows their brains to somewhat disengage from the picture. I'm not talking airline pilots here, I'm talking GA guys.

Yes I have. And having flown 135 single pilot (with no autopilot), I can attest to the importance of briefing approaches- even to yourself. It gets you into the flow of setting things up, then running through your checklist (not your "do" list), to make sure you covered everything. Kind of like in the movie the "Dirty Dozen" when they go through the mission until they can resite it from memory. Several times when I did not do this I found that I forgot something.

 

[///AMG]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

Yes I have. And having flown 135 single pilot (with no autopilot), I can attest to the importance of briefing approaches- even to yourself. It gets you into the flow of setting things up, then running through your checklist (not your "do" list), to make sure you covered everything. Kind of like in the movie the "Dirty Dozen" when they go through the mission until they can resite it from memory. Several times when I did not do this I found that I forgot something.

+10. High performance single pilot IFR ops do not leave much room for error. It is a habit pattern for us, just as much as it is for multi-crew guys, though it might be executed in a different way (ie being single seat, I don't talk to anyone)

 

[shdw]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

but there is no point in holding the yoke if you are not doing the first step in instrument flying- scanning.

Well I am shocked it took to page three for spiral instability to come up! I would favor the intermediate, I advocate not moving ones hands when they are not looking at their instruments. We don't blindly drive the car when not looking at the road, why do it in an airplane? That is my rational to a student at least.

In VFR flight I teach pilots not to move the yoke when there eyes are not outside. I find it helps them from chasing instruments when they scan down and see they lost 50 feet. I suspect in IFR flying it would help reduce the chance for vertigo, don't know yet since I don't teach that.

Though I also recommend my students have a sweat shirt with them to substitute for the crappy 172 arm rest and give them a firm point to fix their arm to. I've found simply relaxing ones arm/wrist does wonders for the death grip and a make shift arm rest seems to be a step in the right direction. Give it a shot if you haven't with your riddle guys.

Tgray: You said all aircraft experience spiral instability. I thought it was more of a spectrum between spiral instability and dutch roll tendencies depending on the stronger of two stabilities: lateral and directional. I.E. the GA aircraft, tending to have more directional stability will exhibit spiral instability, but rarely suffer from dutch roll. Vice versa for large swept wing jets, experiencing such strong lateral stability that spiral instability is negated and instead dutch roll is experienced. Am I confused?

 

[mikecweb]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

Personally I think you all complicate the out of flying.
Just fly the stupid airplane and go home and drink a beer.

 

[Callador]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

Personally I think you all complicate the out of flying.
Just fly the stupid airplane and go home and drink a beer.

True, but how do you grip your beer when you get home?

 

[Boris Badenov]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

Personally I think you all complicate the out of flying.
Just fly the stupid airplane and go home and drink a beer.

You're Dangerous and UnProfessional. UnProfessional and Dangerous. The statistics I just made up support the notion that if you don't breathe, eat, and sleep Flying Aviation Appliances (and arguing about how they "should" be flown), you're going to kill 650 malnourished oprhaned nuns. You monster.

 

[derg]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

NAZI'S!

ABORTION!

See, saved you guys another six pages!

 

[Boris Badenov]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

NAZI'S!

ABORTION!

See, saved you guys another six pages!

Only a Leftist or a Rightist would support Nazis or Abortion. They should all be killed. God said so. And if you disagree, you should be killed. PS. you're all Scabs.

 

[derg]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

Only a Leftist or a Rightist would support Nazis or Abortion. They should all be killed. God said so. And if you disagree, you should be killed. PS. you're all Scabs.

The blog I'm going to quote says you're wrong. I heard it on the internet.