Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight schools

[Blackhawk]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

To break the death grip habit, make em fly with a pencil laced between their fingers. After a few minutes of trying to deathgrip the yoke, their fingers will start hurting. Every time they tense back up- "ow!" and they'll relax again. Shouldn't take more than a few flights at most.

Tried it. I even had one of the pilots break a plastic pen so I had to go to a metal pen. He kept complaining that his fingers were killing him. Well... duh. Maybe you should not keep squeezing.

 

[Av8trix]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

Tried it. I even had one of the pilots break a plastic pen so I had to go to a metal pen. He kept complaining that his fingers were killing him. Well... duh. Maybe you should not keep squeezing.

Wow.

 

[FDX8891]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

Very poor technique and you are crazy. What is the point of holding on to the yoke if you are not looking at your instruments? Instrument flying consists of scan, interpret, aircraft control. If you are not looking at the instruments you are not scanning. If you are not scanning you should not be doing the aircraft control step. If you are not doing the aircraft control step, you should not be holding the yoke as you will find yourself making aircraft inputs without realizing it. Doing so is just a good way to induce vertigo. You should not be looking away from the instruments for 5 minutes, but let go while you get what you need, glance back at the instruments every 5 seconds or so, then hold the yoke to correct somethng if needed.
To show this to pilots I have two ways of inducing upset recoveries. I have the pilot keep flying the airplane with his hand on the yoke. I then have him either close his eyes while flying, or at night keep their eyes open but look down and behind while flying in such a position that they can not see the instruments. Even using the later technique most pilots put themselves into a steep spiral within a minute. If they do the same thing without holding the yoke there is usually no issue. The airplane may drift off heading or altitude a bit, but it is stable and will return (with some exceptions such as the Bonanza which likes to put itself into a steep spiral).

Difference of technique, that's all it is. I see your point about vertigo. But, I don't think you really need to be hands off at any time when in IMC. I could see the hands-off-the-yoke technique to get the student to develop a lighter touch on the yoke, but I don't think it's a good idea to actually fly the airplane that way under those conditions. (Do you let our hands off the steering wheel when you're driving perfectly straight down a long road?) I personally have never felt like having one hand on the yoke to be detrimental to safety while setting up or conducting an approach in IMC. You should still be maintaining your scan even when you're briefing and setting up an approach...If you have a good scan and react accordingly then what's the big deal? That's just me though.

 

[Blackhawk]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

(Do you let our hands off the steering wheel when you're driving perfectly straight down a long road?)

That right there is part of your problem. An airplane is not a car. When you are flying in instruments you are hardly driving down a straight road. You are flying in three demensional space in a stable platform. If you are briefing the approach you are not scanning or you are not really briefing the approach and setting it up. If you are tuning radios or setting up a GPS your eyes are not on the instruments and thus your hand should not be on the controls. Some say flying is the ability to multitask, but really it is the ability to prioritize tasks and do the most important task first. When you are briefing an approach or some other task that requires your attention in the cockpit and you are not longer scanning you need to let go of the controls. The airplane will not dive into the ground, the wings will not fall off, you will not go spinning into space. When your eyes return to your scan touch the controls again.
Holding the yoke is a recipe for disaster when you are doing a missed approach at night in a driving thunderstorm talking to ATC for vectors, cross tuning to talk to FSS about the safest way home, tuning the VOR for the missed, while looking at your low level chart and computing the time to your divert to see if you have enough gas. If you hold the yoke while trying to do all of this you'll end up upside down in a heartbeat.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

That right there is part of your problem. An airplane is not a car. When you are flying in instruments you are hardly driving down a straight road. You are flying in three demensional space in a stable platform. If you are briefing the approach you are not scanning or you are not really briefing the approach and setting it up. If you are tuning radios or setting up a GPS your eyes are not on the instruments and thus your hand should not be on the controls. Some say flying is the ability to multitask, but really it is the ability to prioritize tasks and do the most important task first. When you are briefing an approach or some other task that requires your attention in the cockpit and you are not longer scanning you need to let go of the controls. The airplane will not dive into the ground, the wings will not fall off, you will not go spinning into space. When your eyes return to your scan touch the controls again.
Holding the yoke is a recipe for disaster when you are doing a missed approach at night in a driving thunderstorm talking to ATC for vectors, cross tuning to talk to FSS about the safest way home, tuning the VOR for the missed, while looking at your low level chart and computing the time to your divert to see if you have enough gas. If you hold the yoke while trying to do all of this you'll end up upside down in a heartbeat.

I agree, if you try to be a hero, do everything at once, and hold onto the yoke you'll probably put her in.

What about, do one thing at a time in an orderly and efficient fashion, while holding onto the yoke?

 

[Blackhawk]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

I agree, if you try to be a hero, do everything at once, and hold onto the yoke you'll probably put her in.

What about, do one thing at a time in an orderly and efficient fashion, while holding onto the yoke?

Again, what are the steps to instrument flying? Scan, interpret, aircraft control. If you are not scanning you should not be holding onto the yoke. If you are looking at a chart, tuning a radio, setting up a GPS you are not scanning and you should not be trying to control the aircraft. You do a task while not holding the yoke; scan; nothing changed? Then don't touch the yoke. Go to the next task. Return to scan. Nothing changed? Don't touch the yoke. Something changed? Then interpret and control. Once done, let go again. Holding the yoke while doing anything other than scanning is stupid.
Heck, you can even do a steep turn with your hands off the yoke once the turn is established.

 

[derg]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

I've had a few students come to me from the "Harvard" of flight training with some really, really bad habits that I can not believe are being taught. First one I just thought it was the pilot even though he told me he was taught that way. Second and third... I think they are being taught this way. I am finding it to be almost impossible to break these habits as they are being taught from day one and... well, primacy.
1. You do not need to hold the yoke at all times. Airplanes are designed to be stable. If you are not looking at either your instruments or out the window when VFR there is really no point in holding the yoke. Trim it up and let go. Reaching behind you to get something? Let go of the *&^%% yoke. Briefing and setting up an approach? Let go of the *&^% yoke. Even a steep turn can be flown with fingertips.
2. You do not need to hold the yoke with your palms in a death grip. If you do so you really can not feel what the airplane is doing. A doctor does not hold a scalpel in a death grip. A musician does not hold a bow in a death grip. If you are shooting you do not hold the weapon in a death grip. There is no reason in the world to hold the yoke with more than your fingers in most situations.

I went to the "Harvard" of the skies and I don't remember being taught any of this!

 

[z987k]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

Again, what are the steps to instrument flying? Scan, interpret, aircraft control. If you are not scanning you should not be holding onto the yoke. If you are looking at a chart, tuning a radio, setting up a GPS you are not scanning and you should not be trying to control the aircraft. You do a task while not holding the yoke; scan; nothing changed? Then don't touch the yoke. Go to the next task. Return to scan. Nothing changed? Don't touch the yoke. Something changed? Then interpret and control. Once done, let go again. Holding the yoke while doing anything other than scanning is stupid.
Heck, you can even do a steep turn with your hands off the yoke once the turn is established.

I agree with you on every level. There is no need to be touching the yoke all the time, autopilot or not. I always thought it was a great accomplishment first to be able to trim an airplane and fly a cross county hands off with no autopilot... maybe a tap on the rudder every now and then. Then when you can fly more complex maneuvers hands off... I thought it was even better. I don't even know how you do lazy eights and chandelles with a death grip. Those are done with a pinky finger's worth of effort.
I still fly hands off as much as possible. If you have to put so much effort into controlling the aircraft that you need hands on the whole time, you're going to have big problems in a faster airplane in challenging conditions.

 

[Blackhawk]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

I went to the "Harvard" of the skies and I don't remember being taught any of this!

I think it is recent and coming out of Florida. Heck, I flew with a former chief instructor some years ago at my airline and I know she did not fly this way. From the response I'm reading I'd say it is a commonly taught bad habit. There are CFIs here who think the airplane will go careening off the road if you let go of the yoke.

 

[Blackhawk]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

I agree with you on every level. There is no need to be touching the yoke all the time, autopilot or not. I always thought it was a great accomplishment first to be able to trim an airplane and fly a cross county hands off with no autopilot... maybe a tap on the rudder every now and then. Then when you can fly more complex maneuvers hands off... I thought it was even better. I don't even know how you do lazy eights and chandelles with a death grip. Those are done with a pinky finger's worth of effort.
I still fly hands off as much as possible. If you have to put so much effort into controlling the aircraft that you need hands on the whole time, you're going to have big problems in a faster airplane in challenging conditions.

It gets even worse. I went from a lumbering turboprop to a jet and had a problem the first few sim sessions until I remember to relax on the yoke.

 

[mikecweb]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

I went to "the havard of the skies" recently and wasn't taught any of this. I also don't see the really big deal in any of this. If you hang onto the yolk on a missed approach you aren't going to flip upside down. Further, if bad habits annoy you than you might want to consider another line of work.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

I went to the "Harvard" of the skies and I don't remember being taught any of this!

Bet that you didn't have a 200 + page ops manual, and then an additional 100+ page standardization manual for each airplane in the fleet back then either

 

[derg]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

Nothing good comes out of Florida.

 

[spasekace]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

I'm sorry, but are you guys suggesting that Riddle is the "Harvard of the skies"?!?!?

Now I went to the real Harvard (back me up here Blizzue) and we were taught correctly. Relax, fly with 2 fingers, and let go of the yoke briefly as necessary. Granted that was 16 years ago, but I still fly that way. The Law of Primacy has been good to me.






That's right, I went there... BRING IT ON!!!!:bandit:

 

[Blackhawk]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

I went to "the havard of the skies" recently and wasn't taught any of this. I also don't see the really big deal in any of this. If you hang onto the yolk on a missed approach you aren't going to flip upside down. Further, if bad habits annoy you than you might want to consider another line of work.

Bad instruction anoys me and always will. "Gee, you were taught bad flying habits? Well that's okay." No thanks. Teaching someone to hold on the yoke or "it might veer off the road" is poor instruction. I've flown hundreds of aircraft in numerous classes and can think of only a few where you had to hold the stick at all times- both are rotary wing. Even in those you could release the stick at altitude, they just were not very stable.
And yes, hanging onto the yoke all the time in instruments can, will and has induced vertigo. Like I wrote earlier, it's how I induce unusual attitudes when teaching. I have the person keep flying with their hand on the yoke and their eyes closed. There is little difference in IMC between holding the yoke with your eyes closed and flying without looking at your instruments.
Again, judging from the response by the number of CFIs who think an airplane will go careening out of the sky if you let go of the yoke in IMC and the fact that I have already had three pilots from this school tell me the same thing I'd venture to guess it is being taught.

 

[dasleben]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

Alright, I'm going to out myself here. I was a Riddle AZ instructor about 4 jobs ago. I don't remember either of those issues being a real problem, but then again, I haven't been there for a while. It certainly wasn't policy to have death grips on the yoke. I mostly taught instruments and made sure to teach a light touch.

As far as holding the yoke while flying, well, you probably wouldn't like flying with me then. IMHO, no reason to let go of the yoke unless you need that hand for something. In fact, during 757/767 initial we were given aileron hardovers if we took our hands off the controls below 10,000' for no reason. I'm not joking. Most airlines are the same way, but being that you're former 121, I'm sure you know that. When I flew single-pilot IFR in 402s, I only had my hands off the controls when I was writing something, tuning a radio, flipping a switch, or on autopilot in cruise flight. Any other high workload times, I had my hands on the controls.

Not saying your technique is wrong; I wish more people had a light touch. But, technique is technique. Mine is what I posted above and that's what's served me just fine. YMMV.

 

[Blackhawk]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

Nothing good comes out of Florida.

Rusty airplanes. Oh, you said good.

 

[Blackhawk]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

Alright, I'm going to out myself here. I was a Riddle AZ instructor about 4 jobs ago. I don't remember either of those issues being a real problem, but then again, I haven't been there for a while. It certainly wasn't policy to have death grips on the yoke. I mostly taught instruments and made sure to teach a light touch.

As far as holding the yoke while flying, well, you probably wouldn't like flying with me then. IMHO, no reason to let go of the yoke unless you need that hand for something. In fact, during 757/767 initial we were given aileron hardovers if we took our hands off the controls below 10,000' for no reason. I'm not joking. Most airlines are the same way, but being that you're former 121, I'm sure you know that. When I flew single-pilot IFR in 402s, I only had my hands off the controls when I was writing something, tuning a radio, flipping a switch, or on autopilot in cruise flight. Any other high workload times, I had my hands on the controls.

Not saying your technique is wrong; I wish more people had a light touch. But, technique is technique. Mine is what I posted above and that's what's served me just fine. YMMV.

Never heard of this and it was not a technique I have ever seen. Never heard "don't let go of the yoke" at my airline and I saw people let go of yokes all the time in the jump seat.
The point about taking your hand off the yoke while writing, flipping a switch, tuning a radio is just my point. These guys were taught to NEVER let go of the yoke, even if writing, tuning, getting an approach chart from the back seat. I actually had one pilot go fishing through his bag at night in the back seat while holding the yoke. When he looked back he had induced a 45 degree spiral over a dark desert with no moon. To say he was startled is an understatement.

 

[dasleben]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

Never heard of this and it was not a technique I have ever seen. Never heard "don't let go of the yoke" at my airline and I saw people let go of yokes all the time in the jump seat.

Yeah, I know. It's probably the most violated rule in the book (tied with the O2 masks above FL250 with a pilot out of the cockpit rule), but it was in our ops manual at XJT and is also where I'm at now. It says you can remove your hands if you have a reason though, which is what you're getting at below.

The point about taking your hand off the yoke while writing, flipping a switch, tuning a radio is just my point. These guys were taught to NEVER let go of the yoke, even if writing, tuning, getting an approach chart from the back seat. I actually had one pilot go fishing through his bag at night in the back seat while holding the yoke. When he looked back he had induced a 45 degree spiral over a dark desert with no moon. To say he was startled is an understatement.

I getcha now. I agree with ya...you said they were from Daytona? Savages, over there.

 

[FDX8891]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

Bad instruction anoys me and always will. "Gee, you were taught bad flying habits? Well that's okay." No thanks. Teaching someone to hold on the yoke or "it might veer off the road" is poor instruction. I've flown hundreds of aircraft in numerous classes and can think of only a few where you had to hold the stick at all times- both are rotary wing. Even in those you could release the stick at altitude, they just were not very stable.
And yes, hanging onto the yoke all the time in instruments can, will and has induced vertigo. Like I wrote earlier, it's how I induce unusual attitudes when teaching. I have the person keep flying with their hand on the yoke and their eyes closed. There is little difference in IMC between holding the yoke with your eyes closed and flying without looking at your instruments.
Again, judging from the response by the number of CFIs who think an airplane will go careening out of the sky if you let go of the yoke in IMC and the fact that I have already had three pilots from this school tell me the same thing I'd venture to guess it is being taught.

Not once have I told you that your technique is garbage or that you are a poor instructor, so enough of that. Thanks!

I am AGREEING with you in that you absolutely DO NOT need a death grip on the yoke at ANY TIME. However our difference in opinion lays in the fact that I do not teach my students to ever just "let go" of the airplane even if it's trimmed up properly. With a proper scan and cockpit discipline I think it is OK to have one hand lightly on the yoke at all times while flying in IMC...what crime is a person who does this guilty of?