Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight schools

Blackhawk

Blackhawk

Well-Known Member
I've had a few students come to me from the "Harvard" of flight training with some really, really bad habits that I can not believe are being taught. First one I just thought it was the pilot even though he told me he was taught that way. Second and third... I think they are being taught this way. I am finding it to be almost impossible to break these habits as they are being taught from day one and... well, primacy.
1. You do not need to hold the yoke at all times. Airplanes are designed to be stable. If you are not looking at either your instruments or out the window when VFR there is really no point in holding the yoke. Trim it up and let go. Reaching behind you to get something? Let go of the *&^%% yoke. Briefing and setting up an approach? Let go of the *&^% yoke. Even a steep turn can be flown with fingertips.
2. You do not need to hold the yoke with your palms in a death grip. If you do so you really can not feel what the airplane is doing. A doctor does not hold a scalpel in a death grip. A musician does not hold a bow in a death grip. If you are shooting you do not hold the weapon in a death grip. There is no reason in the world to hold the yoke with more than your fingers in most situations.
 
Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

Why would someone even teach that? I mean I know that a lot of students will do it on their own if not taught otherwise, but to intentionally teach that as procedure? WTF?
 
Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

I'm confused, you want your students to death grip the yoke?

I should never ever let my hand leave the yoke? Ever? How do I check my trim job? :) (Obviously I don't think they should just arbitrarily let go, but come on, take it easy)
 
Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

Curious as to what the "Harvard" of flight schools is? If there is a "Harvard", is there also a "Princeton" and "Yale"???
 
Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

Meh.

It's the culture of part 142 as a whole, IMO. They don't need to teach you to proficiency or teach good flying, just to the standard of the next check. The assumption is that you can graduate a blowy pilot because he/she won't be leaving the controlled 142 environment anytime soon. "Hands off flying" is not a line item, so few teach it. It's not that someone taught your pilot to have a death grip, but more likely that none of the 17 instructors that flew with him/her thought it was their problen.

As an instructor at a 142, it's really easy to cop that "not my problem" kind of attitude. Kid can't trim? Meh... unsat. Someone will have to fix that. If students wash out or get discouraged, you'll just get assigned more. No need to delve into their personal lives, figure out what motivates them, and establish a reputation as a thorough instructor.
 
Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

PFGiardino said:
Meh.

It's the culture of part 142 as a whole, IMO. They don't need to teach you to proficiency or teach good flying, just to the standard of the next check. The assumption is that you can graduate a blowy pilot because he/she won't be leaving the controlled 142 environment anytime soon. "Hands off flying" is not a line item, so few teach it. It's not that someone taught your pilot to have a death grip, but more likely that none of the 17 instructors that flew with him/her thought it was their problen.

As an instructor at a 142, it's really easy to cop that "not my problem" kind of attitude. Kid can't trim? Meh... unsat. Someone will have to fix that. If students wash out or get discouraged, you'll just get assigned more. No need to delve into their personal lives, figure out what motivates them, and establish a reputation as a thorough instructor.
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+1

Sorry Blackhawk, it is what it is. Sometimes people are taught bad habits, even at Riddle.

Why don't you fly on down and teach them all how it's done.
 
Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

jynxyjoe said:
+1

Sorry Blackhawk, it is what it is. Sometimes people are taught bad habits, even at Riddle.

Why don't you fly on down and teach them all how it's done.
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Too busy instructing. My hope was that some from there would read this and it might start a discussion among them. I don't think it is instructors not taking the time to break the habbits as all have told me that they would be critiqued on letting go of the controls if they did so... so they always held the controls and eventually developed the death grip. I've tried every trick in the book but have found that once a pilot develops this habbit in primary it is very hard to break him of it. I've thought about getting my dog's shock collar and trying that.
 
Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

Blackhawk said:
I am finding it to be almost impossible to break these habits as they are being taught from day one and... well, primacy.
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This might be a symptom of a problem, not the problem itself. You can attempt to suppress the symptom all you want, but you won't be able to eradicate it. The underlying problem might simply be stress; when people are tense, they tend to clutch at things. The one time I rode a horse, I certainly had a death grip on the saddle horn and you wouldn't have been able to talk me out of it for more than a few seconds at a time.
 
Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

Blackhawk said:
Too busy instructing. My hope was that some from there would read this and it might start a discussion among them. I don't think it is instructors not taking the time to break the habbits as all have told me that they would be critiqued on letting go of the controls if they did so... so they always held the controls and eventually developed the death grip. I've tried every trick in the book but have found that once a pilot develops this habbit in primary it is very hard to break him of it. I've thought about getting my dog's shock collar and trying that.
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Naw man, you have to get the instructors to agree that it is actually an "issue". Then they would have to change the course syllabus in order to be "approved" to teach it, which would probably take a year plus. On top of that, you'd have to get the standards pilots to agree to a standard, which I think would be difficult, because my experience with the standards pilots was they were anything but standard. Its like a government bureaucracy at its finest. Or like Walmart, "Get your rating and get out"

I didn't used to think the place was a ratings mill, but my mentality has changed on the place in the last year. Are there good pilots that come out of there, yes. Are a vast majority of them good? I'll leave that for you to decide.
 
Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

tgrayson said:
This might be a symptom of a problem, not the problem itself. You can attempt to suppress the symptom all you want, but you won't be able to eradicate it. The underlying problem might simply be stress; when people are tense, they tend to clutch at things. The one time I rode a horse, I certainly had a death grip on the saddle horn and you wouldn't have been able to talk me out of it for more than a few seconds at a time.
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Try to get them to relax as much as possible. I even tell them if they don't relax I'll have to yell more. Yes, it is even something I have to fight. I have to remind myself when flying a new airplane or aerobatics to relax on the stick. While it is a normal reaction it is not one inducive to precise flying.
 
Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

PFGiardino said:
Meh.

It's the culture of part 142 as a whole, IMO. They don't need to teach you to proficiency or teach good flying, just to the standard of the next check. The assumption is that you can graduate a blowy pilot because he/she won't be leaving the controlled 142 environment anytime soon. "Hands off flying" is not a line item, so few teach it. It's not that someone taught your pilot to have a death grip, but more likely that none of the 17 instructors that flew with him/her thought it was their problen.

As an instructor at a 142, it's really easy to cop that "not my problem" kind of attitude. Kid can't trim? Meh... unsat. Someone will have to fix that. If students wash out or get discouraged, you'll just get assigned more. No need to delve into their personal lives, figure out what motivates them, and establish a reputation as a thorough instructor.
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No it's not and it is something recent. I've flown with pilots from this school in the past and never saw this until recently.
 
Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

Blackhawk said:
No it's not and it is something recent. I've flown with pilots from this school in the past and never saw this until recently.
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When I went through I don't remember having those bad habits. I'm sure I had others.

Riddle, like any school, is set in culture. They happen to be pushing a technique now that pushes your buttons.
 
Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

bLizZuE said:
I'm confused, you want your students to death grip the yoke?

I should never ever let my hand leave the yoke? Ever? How do I check my trim job? :) (Obviously I don't think they should just arbitrarily let go, but come on, take it easy)
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Heck yeah, they should hang on to that yoke like it's the only thing that's keeping them in the air!
 
Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

Reaching behind you to get something? Let go of the *&^%% yoke. Briefing and setting up an approach? Let go of the *&^% yoke.[/QUOTE said:
Call me crazy, but I will not be letting any of my students let go of the yoke when briefing and setting up an instrument approach, especially in IMC. I've found that even when I have the airplane trimmed really well, it will still never be perfect enough to the point where I can just let go of the yoke and let the "stable" airplane take it from there. I think I get the essence of what you're saying though...definitely no need to white-knuckle the yoke during any phase of flight. Trim it up and relax your grip...yes....I wouldn't let go though.
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Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

FDX8891 said:
Call me crazy, but I will not be letting any of my students let go of the yoke when briefing and setting up an instrument approach, especially in IMC. I've found that even when I have the airplane trimmed really well, it will still never be perfect enough to the point where I can just let go of the yoke and let the "stable" airplane take it from there. I think I get the essence of what you're saying though...definitely no need to white-knuckle the yoke during any phase of flight. Trim it up and relax your grip...yes....I wouldn't let go though.
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Very poor technique and you are crazy. What is the point of holding on to the yoke if you are not looking at your instruments? Instrument flying consists of scan, interpret, aircraft control. If you are not looking at the instruments you are not scanning. If you are not scanning you should not be doing the aircraft control step. If you are not doing the aircraft control step, you should not be holding the yoke as you will find yourself making aircraft inputs without realizing it. Doing so is just a good way to induce vertigo. You should not be looking away from the instruments for 5 minutes, but let go while you get what you need, glance back at the instruments every 5 seconds or so, then hold the yoke to correct somethng if needed.
To show this to pilots I have two ways of inducing upset recoveries. I have the pilot keep flying the airplane with his hand on the yoke. I then have him either close his eyes while flying, or at night keep their eyes open but look down and behind while flying in such a position that they can not see the instruments. Even using the later technique most pilots put themselves into a steep spiral within a minute. If they do the same thing without holding the yoke there is usually no issue. The airplane may drift off heading or altitude a bit, but it is stable and will return (with some exceptions such as the Bonanza which likes to put itself into a steep spiral).
 
Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

I have the pilot keep flying the airplane with his hand on the yoke. I then have him either close his eyes while flying, or at night keep their eyes open but look down and behind while flying in such a position that they can not see the instruments
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During my instrument checkride this is similar to what my examiner did. Instead of me letting go and him putting it in a unsual attitude, he had me continue to fly the airplane with my eyes closed and he just told me to do simple things like turn, climb, and descend until the airplane in an unsual attitude then he had me recover it.
 
Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

To break the death grip habit, make em fly with a pencil laced between their fingers. After a few minutes of trying to deathgrip the yoke, their fingers will start hurting. Every time they tense back up- "ow!" and they'll relax again. Shouldn't take more than a few flights at most.
 
Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

Inverted25 said:
During my instrument checkride this is similar to what my examiner did. Instead of me letting go and him putting it in a unsual attitude, he had me continue to fly the airplane with my eyes closed and he just told me to do simple things like turn, climb, and descend until the airplane in an unsual attitude then he had me recover it.
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Sometimes I will do that as well. Usually just having the pilot move their head or twist their body will induce control movements. The pilot will usually then start relying on their proprioceptive senses and away you go.
 
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