Affirmative Action in Aviation

[jhugz]

I can't tell you how many people presumed I am where I am because of some special non-existent program and they weren't although they failed to match even the minimum qualifications for the job I have.

I always knew you got that SuthernJets job because you were batting for the other team. Pruf!!!

 

[KLB]

I can't tell you how many people presumed I am where I am because of some special non-existent program and they weren't although they failed to match even the minimum qualifications for the job I have.

Doug,

My only complaint about ACE...
I was highly upset when I walked into the job fair and recruiters weren't leaping over their tables, (elbowing old ladies) while running up to me and telling me how I've got the look they've been seeking. How they need more of "my kind" at their company. Highly disappointed! I mean...there wasn't even a special line for me.:cwm27:

 

[derg]

Some people think that way though.

Right before I left Skyway, my friends were excited, some people who I thought were my friends I discovered they weren't.

"Oh, they didn't give me an interview!"

"Did you apply?"

"I don't have a degree, but THAT SHOULDN'T MATTER!"

Ugh, don't get me started.

I always tell guys that there's no such thing as comparative success, make your own!

 

[MikeD]

Some people think that way though.

Right before I left Skyway, my friends were excited, some people who I thought were my friends I discovered they weren't.

"Oh, they didn't give me an interview!"

"Did you apply?"

"I don't have a degree, but THAT SHOULDN'T MATTER!"

Ugh, don't get me started.

I always tell guys that there's no such thing as comparative success, make your own!

Now you get to drive the swanky Beemer M5, and they don't!

 

[derg]

I've got a three, YOU'VE got the five man, don't be playa hatin' Mike!

 

[derg]

(It's my wife's, it's my wife's, yeah shaddup! )

 

[KLB]

Some people believe that affirmative action is really bigger than it actually is....

I had the same issues in college. There was a lot of resentment because some in the aviation program thought that any successes I had in aviation would come from affirmative action... and I'm the guy thats flying boxes in the 30+ plus year old aircraft in the middle of the night. They were convinced that I'd be at FedEx by now because of affirmative action.:whatever:

 

[MFT1Air]

After some advice from someone on the hiring board of a major airline (which airline and the person shall remain nameless) I choose to either leave the question blank, or check the box that says I don't want to answer the question.

I misread your quote. If someone on the hiring board makes THAT kinda recommendation, I'll salute the flagpole and do as I'm told, then ask for an explanation AFTER I'm hired.

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

Yes, you are right. And get over it. Things have changed since even the 80's. I can remember when a friend of my fathers was not hired by LAFD because the needed more "ethnic diversity" in the ranks. Even though he was more qualified than a friend of his who was, on his application "hispanic" because his mother was from Mexico, and his father from the US. Would you rather have someone who is the most qualified, or someone who got their position based on race alone?

I saw American History X, too.

 

[jtrain609]

Employers need to fill a quota of different backgrounds. They get fined by different employment authorities. Of course affirmative action will never be described as a quota system but that's what it is.

Erm...you know I'm nearly sure you're wrong, but I'm almost positive that you can't actually back this up.

 

[HRDiva]

OK let me set the record straight.

When we collect data with the application, IT DOES NOT GO TO THE HIRING MANAGERS--IT STAYS HIDDEN IN HR LAND. It is there because we may need it to report in aggregate to government entities or we may want to use it, as HR professionals, to assess the effectiveness of our recruiting efforts. It doesn't impact your application one way or the other.

Quotas are illegal except in limited circumstances and usually for a time specific period. Normally, we cast a wider net and have goals. So, if we only have employees from Mars and want to ensure we have employees from Venus, we look at where we can recruit people from Venus. That doesn't mean we lower the standards for the job. It means we find where the people from Venus are hanging out and put our posters up there too. If, like Bill Gates, we find that the people from Venus don't have the skills and we are Bill Gates, we just build schools and send people from Venus to school so that they have the skills!

Sometimes employers are government contractors (doesn't Delta fly military flights?). Then they have to have an Affirmative Action Plan. If you are already meeting requirements, it doesn't mean you have to do anything different than what you are currently doing. But, if in the relevant labor market of 80% Venetians, you don't have a comparable labor pool and instead have 60% Martians, you need to justify that or else alter your recruitment methods. In any case, one has to capture the data to report it in the aggregate.

I hope this helps explain what I teach in a couple of college classes in a few sentences!

 

[HRDiva]

Erm...you know I'm nearly sure you're wrong, but I'm almost positive that you can't actually back this up.

Try City of Richmond v. J A Croson Company--the strict quota system was ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court and, earlier, United Steelworkers v. Weber in which the court first held that strict quotas were not allowed.

 

[derg]

OK let me set the record straight.

When we collect data with the application, IT DOES NOT GO TO THE HIRING MANAGERS--IT STAYS HIDDEN IN HR LAND. It is there because we may need it to report in aggregate to government entities or we may want to use it, as HR professionals, to assess the effectiveness of our recruiting efforts. It doesn't impact your application one way or the other.

Quotas are illegal except in limited circumstances and usually for a time specific period. Normally, we cast a wider net and have goals. So, if we only have employees from Mars and want to ensure we have employees from Venus, we look at where we can recruit people from Venus. That doesn't mean we lower the standards for the job. It means we find where the people from Venus are hanging out and put our posters up there too. If, like Bill Gates, we find that the people from Venus don't have the skills and we are Bill Gates, we just build schools and send people from Venus to school so that they have the skills!

Sometimes employers are government contractors (doesn't Delta fly military flights?). Then they have to have an Affirmative Action Plan. If you are already meeting requirements, it doesn't mean you have to do anything different than what you are currently doing. But, if in the relevant labor market of 80% Venetians, you don't have a comparable labor pool and instead have 60% Martians, you need to justify that or else alter your recruitment methods. In any case, one has to capture the data to report it in the aggregate.

I hope this helps explain what I teach in a couple of college classes in a few sentences!

Thanks for the real world information!

I get a lot of email and I try to convey to people that an application is an application so just offer what they're asking if you really want the job.

 

[HRDiva]

Well, now you can convey it in a way that is more accurate. It's not about, "comply or risk not getting to the next step in the process"; rather it's about helping out the poor HR department in gathering statistics that they have to report in aggregate.

 

[jtrain609]

Try City of Richmond v. J A Croson Company--the strict quota system was ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court and, earlier, United Steelworkers v. Weber in which the court first held that strict quotas were not allowed.

Solid! Thanks for the cites and the explanation, it makes sense.

 

[Polar742]

Erm...you know I'm nearly sure you're wrong, but I'm almost positive that you can't actually back this up.

Try City of Richmond v. J A Croson Company--the strict quota system was ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court and, earlier, United Steelworkers v. Weber in which the court first held that strict quotas were not allowed.

:rotfl:

 

[HRDiva]

Thanks! I am not going to get into complex discussion of organizational profiles, organizational displays, workforce analysis, job group analysis, availability analysis and the 4/5 rule!

 

[MFT1Air]

OK let me set the record straight.

When we collect data with the application, IT DOES NOT GO TO THE HIRING MANAGERS--IT STAYS HIDDEN IN HR LAND. It is there because we may need it to report in aggregate to government entities or we may want to use it, as HR professionals, to assess the effectiveness of our recruiting efforts. It doesn't impact your application one way or the other.

Sometimes employers are government contractors (doesn't Delta fly military flights?). Then they have to have an Affirmative Action Plan. If you are already meeting requirements, it doesn't mean you have to do anything different than what you are currently doing. But, if in the relevant labor market of 80% Venetians, you don't have a comparable labor pool and instead have 60% Martians, you need to justify that or else alter your recruitment methods. In any case, one has to capture the data to report it in the aggregate.

I hope this helps explain what I teach in a couple of college classes in a few sentences!

. . .and I don't teach the class, but I took copious mental and written notes of that particular area where you teach. . .comparatively speaking. :clap:Matter of fact, working on my MBA, HR classes are where I am receiving my best grades. :bandit:

I'm not disagreeing with you on any count, but again. . .he made the comment of "someone on the hiring board " making a suggestion to leave it blank or prefer not to answer. That in itself raised a negative flag about the rationale for making the suggestion. . .

(1) either that person is clueless to the statistical utilization of the information, or. . . .

(2) collusion in the workplace? (Yes, I can differentiate between collusion and conspiracy)

As I'm leaning towards the reason (1), in the background, I always wonder if (2) isn't a possibility. . .not necessarily probable but possible.

PS - I love my HR folks; not too happy with the professionalism of my "ethics" department.

 

[HRDiva]

I don't know to whom he refers as the "hiring board". I do know there is a lot of misinformation regarding HR, regulations, rules, laws, ordinances, practices, policies, procedures, etc. In short, most people think they know all about HR, but know little!

So, if the quote is accurate, then I doubt the source.

Thus, I agree with your conclusion that the person is most likely clueless.

Good for you on going for the MBA. I have one of those too!
​

 

[staplegun]

Groups that have received preferential treatment for centuries generally oppose any hint of preferential treatment for other groups for even a generation or two to level that particular playing field.

Civil War historian Bruce Catton relates a story in his powerful book Glory Road about Confederate prisoners being marched northward through Virginia, passing a plantation where several slaves had gathered near the road to watch the procession.

One older slave viewed the scene with immense satisfaction, calling out to the dejected southerners, “Bottom rail on top, now.” His reference to the fact that the ante-bellum south had ceased to exist and that the world had turned upside down probably didn’t go over very well with those southern troops.

Has the playing field been leveled - that's a potentially nasty political discussion that will make "pitch v power" seem like a love-fest.

MidlifeFlyer, these questions are aimed at the group in general, not you...

Can you conceive of an African-American flying airliners in the 1950s? The 1960s?

Perhaps there weren't many (any) who thought they would be afforded the opportunity. Why do you think that is?

There are many African-Americans flying airliners today, are they somehow different in any way other than the opportunities afforded them by our society then their forebears?

Those of you making the "color-blind" argument, i.e. that all applicants and jobs should be filled regardless of skin color know that this is not how the real world works, right? Unfortunately our society has many racists, and some of them have been in HR hiring positions in the past (and possibly, still, now...) Corporations had also taken on the culture of racism over time.

Regardless of how you feel about our Federal government, this is one of the things they have gotten right over time. We, the citizens of the United States of America have, as a society, participated in denying people with black skin equal opportunity in just about every measure of citizenship for most of the life of this republic. Only in the last 50 years or so has this injustice started to be overturned. It would not have happened (or might have, but nowhere as quickly) without the intervention of the "Feds..."

Did some of "the Blacks" get ahead of some of "the Whites" unfairly? Possibly... "How does it feel, Whitey?"

All I know is, I'm a WASP and I've never been denied anything I've worked for in my life because of the color of my skin...


"But Kevin, I was born in 19XX and all of that was in the past. My ancestors didn't own slaves and now I'm being discriminated against!"

OK, except you are a part of this society, and you rise and fall with its vicissitudes.

“Bottom rail on top, now.”

OK let me set the record straight.

When we collect data with the application, IT DOES NOT GO TO THE HIRING MANAGERS--IT STAYS HIDDEN IN HR LAND. It is there because we may need it to report in aggregate to government entities or we may want to use it, as HR professionals, to assess the effectiveness of our recruiting efforts. It doesn't impact your application one way or the other.

Quotas are illegal except in limited circumstances and usually for a time specific period. Normally, we cast a wider net and have goals. So, if we only have employees from Mars and want to ensure we have employees from Venus, we look at where we can recruit people from Venus. That doesn't mean we lower the standards for the job. It means we find where the people from Venus are hanging out and put our posters up there too. If, like Bill Gates, we find that the people from Venus don't have the skills and we are Bill Gates, we just build schools and send people from Venus to school so that they have the skills!

Sometimes employers are government contractors (doesn't Delta fly military flights?). Then they have to have an Affirmative Action Plan. If you are already meeting requirements, it doesn't mean you have to do anything different than what you are currently doing. But, if in the relevant labor market of 80% Venetians, you don't have a comparable labor pool and instead have 60% Martians, you need to justify that or else alter your recruitment methods. In any case, one has to capture the data to report it in the aggregate.

I hope this helps explain what I teach in a couple of college classes in a few sentences!

I rest my case.

BTW, the African-American % of the USA is 12.4 as of 2009. I doubt that 12.4% of airline pilots are from this demographic, although I would be happy to be corrected.


Kevin