Logging time as an IRO

dasleben

dasleben

That's just, like, your opinion, man
Hey all,

For 3-man crews operating on long-haul routes (CA, FO, IRO), how does the IRO generally log the flight time? I've heard a few differing opinions on this, and wanted the general consensus. Do you log the entire flight duration, or just the time in the seat? Just curious how this is usually handled out on the line. Also, is it as simple as logging it all as SIC, or do you make a note about acting as the IRO?

Thanks!
 
dasleben said:
Hey all,

For 3-man crews operating on long-haul routes (CA, FO, IRO), how does the IRO generally log the flight time? I've heard a few differing opinions on this, and wanted the general consensus. Do you log the entire flight duration, or just the time in the seat? Just curious how this is usually handled out on the line. Also, is it as simple as logging it all as SIC, or do you make a note about acting as the IRO?

Thanks!
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SOuthernjets doesn't have IROs, just FOs, so I log all the flight time and just my takeoff/landings when I'm the PF. Even though I'm typed and spend part of the flight in the left seat and am considered the PIC per the FAA when I do, I don't log any PIC time. Do people actually keep an SIC column in their logbook?
 
Cptnchia said:
SOuthernjets doesn't have IROs, just FOs, so I log all the flight time and just my takeoff/landings when I'm the PF. Even though I'm typed and spend part of the flight in the left seat and am considered the PIC per the FAA when I do, I don't log any PIC time. Do people actually keep an SIC column in their logbook?
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I did when I was a B1900 FO, but that's a totally different application, I don't think that the IRO is usually all that concerned with "building time" like I was. All I cared about was getting then next 500hrs at the time so I could get a better job. Lol.
 
Cptnchia said:
SOuthernjets doesn't have IROs, just FOs, so I log all the flight time and just my takeoff/landings when I'm the PF. Even though I'm typed and spend part of the flight in the left seat and am considered the PIC per the FAA when I do, I don't log any PIC time. Do people actually keep an SIC column in their logbook?
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Well, if you're at Southernjets or another comparable airline, you probably don't care. ;)

Yeah, we don't have full-time IROs either (i.e. SOs); there are just two PIC rated FOs who take turns with FO or IRO duties. Probably the same as everyone else. Thanks for the info!
 
Cptnchia said:
Even though I'm typed and spend part of the flight in the left seat and am considered the PIC per the FAA when I do, I don't log any PIC time. Do people actually keep an SIC column in their logbook?
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Caution! You're going against EVERY one of the 100+ ad nauseum "can I log this as PIC?" threads that are floating around here on JC!
 
International Relief Officer.

That's about all I know about IRO's.
 
Doug Taylor said:
International Relief Officer.

That's about all I know about IRO's.
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You guys might not call them IROs, but is that about how it's done with Southernjets? Two type-rated FOs who swap between the right seat and being the PB ("Paperwork Boy"...polite company)? ;)
 
Just my take: If you're in the right seat acting as the SIC, you can log that time as SIC (and of course as PIC when you do the flying). But, even though you need to be there to relieve the right-seater, there's no basis I can see in 61.51 for logging your "paperwork boy" or nap time.

There is one possibility: if your presence on board is required by the OpSpecs, you might make a case for having some kind of generic "flight time" (as defined in FAR 1.1 and 61.1) even without fitting into a formal 61.51 box, but I think that's a little iffy and would want something more reliable than the mental meanderings of SGOTI.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
Just my take: If you're in the right seat acting as the SIC, you can log that time as SIC (and of course as PIC when you do the flying). But, even though you need to be there to relieve the right-seater, there's no basis I can see in 61.51 for logging your "paperwork boy" or nap time.

There is one possibility: if your presence on board is required by the OpSpecs, you might make a case for having some kind of generic "flight time" (as defined in FAR 1.1 and 61.1) even without fitting into a formal 61.51 box, but I think that's a little iffy and would want something more reliable than the mental meanderings of SGOTI.
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An additional pilot is required to be onboard per Part 121 for long haul segments when a two-pilot crew would exceed the flight and duty limitations. In my company's case, if 121.505 can't be complied with (flight time limitations for two-pilot crews), then 121.507 must be complied with (flight time limitations for three-pilot crews). On a flight from say, Shannon, Ireland to DFW (about 10 hours), a third pilot is required by Part 121 to be onboard. No way around that. My question was whether or not you could log the entire flight duration simply because you are required for the entire duration. Seems like Cptnchia is saying that it's an accepted practice. If it is, I'm good with that (I don't really care about whether the FAA likes it, anyway ;)).

By the way, I'm simply going to log it as SIC, even being a type rated pilot relieving the Captain. Seems like if I showed up to an interview a good while down the line with a logbook full of 767 PIC time when I didn't actually sign for the airplane, I'd probably get laughed right out of there. Probably legal, but probably not an accepted practice!
 
dasleben said:
If it is, I'm good with that (I don't really care about whether the FAA likes it, anyway ;)).
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OTOH, a potential employer can only deny you a job or fire you. The FAA can revoke your certificates is you log somehting in a 61.51-based colum than doesn't meet the regs for it. That tends to put a damper on careers.

(Yes I saw the wink - this is just a note for others who might take a look)
 
No support to argue the point but I would log SIC all the time I was IN the cockpit except when the designated PIC (the one who signed the release) was out of the cockpit and then as a type rated pilot, log PIC. Makes sense to ME anyway.
 
I log all the block time when I'm in charge of coffee and ACARS. I log the flight as TT, SIC and if I'm IRO, I have a separate column for IRO time.

So basically I'd log a flight as IRO in the following way:

Total Flight: 10+56
SIC: 10+56
IRO: 10+56

Remember, during the ENTIRE flight you are required crew, even during your breaks. If something goes down, you will get hauled upfront. Keeping the IRO separate is, in my mind anyway, the way you show the next shop that you got to "play CA" while the boss was taking a nap or whatever.

It seems different companies treat this time different ways. Your company's culture might be different. I'm logging the way it was explained to me to log the time.

Remember, most every other job you will apply for from this point on will understand the IRO position. If you happen to apply to a purely domestic operation and the interviewer doesn't understand IRO, then you can just knock off the IRO time and have an accurate count as SIC.

I'm sure there are going to be really long explanations on how to do it this way, letters to do it that way, someone's cousin says do XYZ. At the end of the day, to me, it's like logging actual IMC in 121 operations. You are instrument qualified when you leave the sim, so you will never need currency via logbook time. Same deal here, it's more for your own convenience than anything else at this point.

Even more important, if you have SOS or something like it, make sure you subscribe to the newsletters. Lots of good info there.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
Just my take: If you're in the right seat acting as the SIC, you can log that time as SIC (and of course as PIC when you do the flying). But, even though you need to be there to relieve the right-seater, there's no basis I can see in 61.51 for logging your "paperwork boy" or nap time.

There is one possibility: if your presence on board is required by the OpSpecs, you might make a case for having some kind of generic "flight time" (as defined in FAR 1.1 and 61.1) even without fitting into a formal 61.51 box, but I think that's a little iffy and would want something more reliable than the mental meanderings of SGOTI.
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It's the FARs that require your presence in the cockpit. The only time you will be a 3 or 4 is when you are operating under Flag rules.

If you think the domestic flight/rest stuff is confusing, wait until you need to operate under 3 different sets of rules....domestic, flag and supplemental. It makes calculus look like kindergarten math.
 
Polar742 said:
I log all the block time when I'm in charge of coffee and ACARS. I log the flight as TT, SIC and if I'm IRO, I have a separate column for IRO time.

So basically I'd log a flight as IRO in the following way:

Total Flight: 10+56
SIC: 10+56
IRO: 10+56

Remember, during the ENTIRE flight you are required crew, even during your breaks. If something goes down, you will get hauled upfront. Keeping the IRO separate is, in my mind anyway, the way you show the next shop that you got to "play CA" while the boss was taking a nap or whatever.

It seems different companies treat this time different ways. Your company's culture might be different. I'm logging the way it was explained to me to log the time.

Remember, most every other job you will apply for from this point on will understand the IRO position. If you happen to apply to a purely domestic operation and the interviewer doesn't understand IRO, then you can just knock off the IRO time and have an accurate count as SIC.

I'm sure there are going to be really long explanations on how to do it this way, letters to do it that way, someone's cousin says do XYZ. At the end of the day, to me, it's like logging actual IMC in 121 operations. You are instrument qualified when you leave the sim, so you will never need currency via logbook time. Same deal here, it's more for your own convenience than anything else at this point.

Even more important, if you have SOS or something like it, make sure you subscribe to the newsletters. Lots of good info there.
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Thanks for the great writeup! Seems like this is about what most people are doing. Sounds good to me.

What's this SOS you're referring to? Some secret long-haul Freemason club newsletter? :)
 
And if you're on break, snoozing away with "News From Lake Wobegon" on the old iPod and the guys up front screw up, you get a violation too! ;)
 
Polar742 said:
SOS is a company that takes care of us if we get sick, as well as aggregates and passes on security info to our company.

Have you taken your first "math test" yet?
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Gotcha. Haven't heard of anything like that around here, but I'll have to ask. I'm sure there's something similar.

Math test...can't say I have...I think? :)
 
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