wrxpilot
New Member
Who says they have a one year upgrade?
Great Lakes hiring F/Os
- Thread starter Socal321
- Start date
Who says they have a one year upgrade?
Stone Cold
Well-Known Member
Keep this thread in mind as you progress through your career. Go back to it in 10 years, and look at what you wrote. Then, and only then, will you understand.
Stone Cold
Well-Known Member
It is called trying to edumicate younger pilots. Some times, I (we) are too brash, sometimes people get carried away, but most of the time, it is people trying to educate the younger crowd.
Believe it or not, the Great Lakes, Mesas, Colgans, etc., of the world DO hurt people employed by other companies, and their battle for their QOL/pay/schedule. So, no, you cannot just say "don't go there" as it affects everybody. Also, you may say...but you work overseas and are "Part 91". Guess what, it does affect me. Look at all the threads where people say "it's better than regional pay." That may be true, but it is not justification for the low pay. There are numerous threads out there with this mentioned, including I believe a recent Citation gig, and some others.
Please, listen to the people who have been in your position. Learn from our experience. We are trying to teach what we have learned or seen. We may not always say it as diplomatically as we could, but there are reasons we are saying what we do. Otherwise, we would not be on this site...
poser765
Well-Known Member
I'm note really all that doltish so why don't you give me a sample of what I might think as opposed to simply implying young and dumb.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
Application is in. I hope I hope I hope I hope!!!@!
Stone Cold
Well-Known Member
Ok, how brutally honest do you want??? I'll just go ahead with what I think you are asking for, if that is okay with you...since you are "really not all that doltish".
You know what, I have had some wine tonight, so I will refrain. I will say this...please look at my post above and answer a couple of questions...do you mind continuing lowering pay throughout the industry (that is what you are doing, whether you realize it or not), and do you really think it is justification that since it is a pay raise for you that it makes it okay to do the previous?
Listen, all of us have been in your shoes. It sucks. I will not say pay your dues. I will not say somebody else will not take your place. Quite a few of the people on this site "took my place when I said no to the regionals" and their suck. Can you look in the mirror later in life when you are president of (insert whatever you want, or Chief pilot, etc.) and telling youngsters not to take the low paying job that management keeps throwing in your face.
Just some things to think about...pardon the wine's influence. It's been an interesting day over here.
I'd have to disagree. Someone going to Great Lakes is not lowering pay, they don't even compete with any other regionals other than Gulfsgtream which I think is even worse as far as pay and qol.
GL is an EAS carrier and it's not even in the same ball park as other regionals, which are really "majors" now at days. It's a good place to go and get some quick experience. You'll get out of the regionals a lot quicker if you're willing to sacrifice your QOL for a couple of years.
Stone Cold
Well-Known Member
Well, we'll agree to disagree then. It doesn't matter if it is a B-1900 operator...it affects pay at all levels in some ways, especially in the regionals, and all of the regional guys who compare 91/135 operations to your pay get mixed in, and this eventually works it's way up to the majors. Maybe not as significant as some other issues but it does go into the pile of dogs...
Also, I have never worked there, but really do you think the guys over at Cape Air, etc., when in negotiations, do not hear about a "big B-1900" operator and their pay? Really? This is way too small of an industry...trust me. Ask fsiflyer who I am flying with right now if you do not think it is a small industry...
poser765
Well-Known Member
Me thinks you should go back and reread my first post in this thread. I am not at lakes. I am not at lakes nor am I really planning on it. I sure as hell don't want to move to denver for 14k a year. My contention is it is hard not to be tempted by anything better. Even if better is still crap. I know I am not alone in my own crap, nor am i the first to experience it.
The draw is to improve oneself. Recently there hasn't been any of that for a lot of people. When an opportunity comes up where we can better our self (even if it is suck) it's hard to look away from it in the interest of something abstract as solidarity and industry improvement. I say abstract because my not taking those jobs really does nothing for the industry but allow the job to go to someone else. If lakes says they have 40 openings, they are going to fill them...regardless of how many of my friends know how bad an idea it is. Sure I will concede that I will feel better about myself later in life. in the time being though it still is tempting. I'm not going to go to them, but you can't blame a person for longing for more in his life.
Please don't assume I am a young wipper snapper who doesn't understand life. Well assume, if you want. I'm ok with that. Please don't treat my like a "Sonnie" though. Tis far more productive to tell me why I may be wrong then to simply assume i won't get it.
CameronF
Well-Known Member
My take on it is this:
I am CFI in WA state, where the winter months absolutely kill the flying. Right now, I am making less than 14k a year with instructing and line service. Again, the weather has a big role in determining my pay.
I look at GL and see an opportunity for me to able to fly a ton, build multi PIC, and still make around the same as I am now. I have no flying or college debt, so for me it would make sense that I want to go there.
My story isn't like most other people's, but to me GL makes logical sense to further my career and get me to a major that much faster.
I am CFI in WA state, where the winter months absolutely kill the flying. Right now, I am making less than 14k a year with instructing and line service. Again, the weather has a big role in determining my pay.
I look at GL and see an opportunity for me to able to fly a ton, build multi PIC, and still make around the same as I am now. I have no flying or college debt, so for me it would make sense that I want to go there.
My story isn't like most other people's, but to me GL makes logical sense to further my career and get me to a major that much faster.
Stone Cold
Well-Known Member
I am just responding to what you posted here...
Please show me where I assumed you were young. Age makes no difference in this industry...the "dream of flying makes people stupid!!" - My quote. It makes no difference whether or not people will take the jobs. Look at some of my old posts. My post in this thread was about the same argument, and you were a launching point. Please do not take it personally.
I understand it is hard to look at others getting hired, and they may have it better than you for a bit, or even for their entire career. I would rather look in the mirror and be able to say I have not done anything to ruin my career. I have passed up the airlines entirely, and have enjoyed my ride. I enjoy going to most of the places I go and can look in the mirror knowing I have not stepped on anybody else's career to get here. That was my point.
As for the "old man's smilie" comment, he has one where an "older" smilie looks over his glasses and examines whatever. If you are that insensitive to think I was calling you a "Sonnie", then I don't know what to tell you. You are an up and comer, and I am still an up and comer with some limited experience under my belt. It is called a joke...
Douglas
Old School KSUX
Wow, StoneCold, you land an awesome job and now you can be smug?
It is actually pretty funny to think GLA is the actual culprit holding the industry back. "Dang you GLA, you and your 19 seaters...flying competition-less EAS routes...dang you!"
Pay and work rules are only going to get better at GLA, I'd get in now but they already turned me down.
Stone Cold
Well-Known Member
Where am I being smug?? I am saying be proud of your career choices, not take whatever is available. You do know I already work overseas, correct? The move I am making, as has been discussed with fsiflyer, is a bonus due to issues where I am currently working, but in the past. I am moving to a little bigger pay check, but you act like I am coming from a crappy job. This is the farthest from the truth.
How will pay and work rules improve at GL if people are lining the resumes up for a job. How much fighting power do you think the pilots have when there is a stack of resumes to take their job for the low pay? Look at JO's quote at Mesa for evidence of this. It is not the routes GL has...it is the fact that ANY company can go into negotiations with pilots and say "look at these (GL, or insert crappy regional, or 135 operator) guys and gals. They will work for $14k/year (or whatever number) so since pilots are desperate, why should we pay you more?" It really is not a hard concept to understand, but whatever. You know, I really did not even mean to get involved in this thread, but whatever...
MichaelC
Well-Known Member
I certainly didn't make that post toward you or anyone at all. Nor would I hate or bash you for going there! Trust me, I understand the climbing the crap latter process. If one were to feel this is a good fit for them, then they should jump at the opportunity! I am currently waiting training at one of the airlines most commonly thrashed on this forum (take a guess), but it's honestly a place that I feel would be a good fit for me (equip, domiciles, coherts). I also didn't want to turn this thread into another hate thread toward an airline or any person applying to said airline. I just had to express my disgust with GL's compensation (and how they can get away with it).
That's not how it works, the pay is determined with other competitors, not any operator. The fact that GL pilots make minimum wage doesn't affect first year pay of a CRJ FO for example. But anyways, that's not the point. To each its own, some people prefer good qol so they wait for the better regionals, some people prefer to get out of the regionals ASAP with that TPIC so they go where there's movement. It has nothing to do with lowering standards.
jhugz
Well-Known Member
As this thread has showed us, there are still plenty of people willing to fly a transport category aircraft for less then McDonald's wages. Why would they ever raise pay to anything respectable when people are willing to put on the epaulets for poverty wages? Though on the flip side, as soon as that ink dries on that 1000th hour of TPIC in your logbook you'll instantly be in the right seat of a legacy carrier. 
jhugz
Well-Known Member
It's absolutely how it works. CommutAir is in negotiations flying 37 seat Dash 8's already with the worse pay rates in the industry. Management just slapped them in the face offering them a contract w/ pay cuts. It effects us all.
Are you saying that Management wants to pay you B1900 wages? You will get paid in accordance with other Dash8 operator. That's what I'm talking about.
Douglas
Old School KSUX
The old-man with glasses comment.
The "look back on what you wrote in ten years" comment.
I don't know your route, but don't look down on anybody, especially when they are trying to make a better life for their family. What he wrote was perfectly acceptable.
Yes, any Legacy can point to the crappy pay of the regionals, but all the regionals are truly crappy, so why don't you and others post stuff like this in those other regional threads too?
It is perfectly acceptable to work for big-name crappy regional, that is why.
The "look back on what you wrote in ten years" comment.
I don't know your route, but don't look down on anybody, especially when they are trying to make a better life for their family. What he wrote was perfectly acceptable.
Yes, any Legacy can point to the crappy pay of the regionals, but all the regionals are truly crappy, so why don't you and others post stuff like this in those other regional threads too?
It is perfectly acceptable to work for big-name crappy regional, that is why.
Stone Cold
Well-Known Member
LOL. Well, that is exactly what I have seen in my line of work. I have been out of the US for a couple of years, but here is what I have experienced, and this is how a Dash operator affects me in Ukraine...some poor schmuck desperate for work comes over on a 30/10 rotation due to being desperate to find the "next best thing and get experience" for peanuts. Then they decide it is not worth it for the money they signed up for. So, next poor sap comes in saying "I got a pay raise from the last guy" so I am living okay, even though he is never home, and always tired when he is home. He upgrades after working that schedule for a while, and then the company finds a "poor regional FO who was flying Dash's in Hawaii" to pay for his own initial (you don't want to know the price). He works for a year solid, no days off because "it's better than the Dash operator I was working for, was hired into with quick upgrades,things slowed and I had no upgrade future when I left". Now, he is unemployed due to the company saying "you paid for initial, so pay for recurrent too". So, we keep running through contract guys, waiting for the next poor guy/gal hoping to get back into flying after being laid off or going to a regional for the upgrade, then having no upgrade chances for them.
So, tell me again how it does not affect anybody but the 1900 operators. I have absolute direct experience with a Dash operator in Hawaii with "quick upgrades" affecting Lear 60 FO pay in Kiev, Ukraine.
There is more to add to the story, but it would have to be told over beers as it is too depressing to relive over and over in a public forum.