Cessna 210 starter issues

[ahsmatt7]

Hi all,

My first WTF moment in aviation happened to me yesterday. To add insult to injury, my girlfriend was sitting next to me in the plane.

This is a two problem post.

First, when I try to usually start my Flight school's 1957 C-210, it tries its hardest to turn over but it never does until the forth attempt. The checklists say that the mixture is set to rich with the aux fuel pump to low and when the starter is turning the prop, slowly increase the throttle. I have done it this way and I can hear the cylinders trying to fire but they never do. My instructor will usually put the mixture to idle cut-off and when he hears the cylinders start to do something he goes full rich and then it starts. However this doesn't happen all the time. Why is this such a pain to start? Any Ideas? Any tips?

Part two:
I was trying to start the plane yesterday and during the second attempt, the starter stopped turning the prop and made a sound like it was stuttering and it was trying so hard to turn the prop but it just could not do it. So I then turned the key off after about a second if this happening and the starter stayed engaged. At this point I had a blank look on my face that had WTF written all over it. I then took the key and the starter was still engaged. At this point I immediately turned off the master and it all stopped....As expected. I said to myself...."I will give it one more go." I turned the master on and the starter was still engaged and trying to turn the prop....it never missed a beat. At this point I turned the master off and left it off for about five minutes and secured the aircraft. I then proceeded to turn the master on to see if it still did it and when I turned it on.....nothing. Everything was back to normal. I could put the flaps up and turn the lights and all that jazz. What happened and why? I read on an old thread at some forum somewhere that Google found when I searched for this issue and people where saying that it was a stuck solenoid or something like that. This incident worried me. Anyone have any insight?

 

[BajtheJino]

Sounds to me like something is not working right and you need to have a conversation with the schools mtx. department followed by a write up of a starter that is not functioning properly.

 

[Roger, Roger]

Yeah, write that sucker up. The diagnosis doesn't really matter because you won't be fixing it, but sounds to me like you have either a bad starter relay or bad ignition switch. Either one of those would cause the starter to run whenever the master is on. The hard starting is probably a separate issue and could be any number of things, though the technique you described does not sound right for starting an injected Continental (I'm thinking that vintage 210 has a IO470?).

 

[ahsmatt7]

Yeah, write that sucker up. The diagnosis doesn't really matter because you won't be fixing it, but sounds to me like you have either a bad starter relay or bad ignition switch. Either one of those would cause the starter to run whenever the master is on. The hard starting is probably a separate issue and could be any number of things, though the technique you described does not sound right for starting an injected Continental (I'm thinking that vintage 210 has a IO470?).

The technique is straight from the POH. My instructor's method is not. I did write up the issue.

 

[fholbert]

Hi all,

My first WTF moment in aviation happened to me yesterday.

Master on and the prop turns.

The solenoid got hot and welded it self together. That's only a $25 part but it sounds like the starter is gone too. Solenoids all look alike but there are a hundred models. I'd go to Cessna for this part vs Aircraft Spruce.

 

[ahsmatt7]

Just for clarification...its a 1967 model, not a 1957. I cant find the edit button.

 

[msmspilot]

Just for clarification...its a 1967 model, not a 1957. I cant find the edit button.

Ok, so it has an IO-520.

It has been my experience that the POH starting procedures are not the most consistent way to start the engine for a particular plane.

I have several hundred hours in 210s with IO-520s. Try this procedure:
1: mixture rich
2: throttle open 1/4 inch
3: master on
4: boost pump on high until fuel flow peaks (only takes a couple seconds)
5: key to start

Most of the 210s I'm flying, this procedure will start the plane in just a few blades. It doesn't work hot, and I can give you a different procedure for that if you want it.

 

[Roger, Roger]

Master on and the prop turns.

The solenoid got hot and welded it self together. That's only a $25 part but it sounds like the starter is gone too. Solenoids all look alike but there are a hundred models. I'd go to Cessna for this part vs Aircraft Spruce.

Not necessarily. If it has a TCM/Bendix ignition switch, there is a known issue with some of those where the starter contacts in the switch will weld themselves together, closing the starter relay as soon as the master comes on so that is a possibility as well. Regardless, any competent mech should be able to figure it out in a short amount of time.

Ok, so it has an IO-520.

It has been my experience that the POH starting procedures are not the most consistent way to start the engine for a particular plane.

I have several hundred hours in 210s with IO-520s. Try this procedure:
1: mixture rich
2: throttle open 1/4 inch
3: master on
4: boost pump on high until fuel flow peaks (only takes a couple seconds)
5: key to start

Most of the 210s I'm flying, this procedure will start the plane in just a few blades. It doesn't work hot, and I can give you a different procedure for that if you want it.

That is what our pilots (and I) use in starting our 206s (same engine) and it works without fail. I would imagine that by running the boost pump whilst cranking the engine the OP is flooding the snot out of it.

 

[msmspilot]

That is what our pilots (and I) use in starting our 206s (same engine) and it works without fail. I would imagine that by running the boost pump whilst cranking the engine the OP is flooding the snot out of it.

Of course, that could have something to do with the starter problems too...

 

[fholbert]

Not necessarily. If it has a TCM/Bendix ignition switch, there is a known issue with some of those where the starter contacts in the switch will weld themselves together, closing the starter relay as soon as the master comes on so that is a possibility as well. Regardless, any competent mech should be able to figure it out in a short amount of time.

The Bendix ignition switch issue I know about and have experienced is when the ignition stays hot, not the starter. Isn't there an AD to check all Bendix ignition switches, see if they shut off when turned off, each annual? I know a lot of the flight schools have it on their check list to check after each flight.

I have a IO520K and had a solenoid weld open in 2006. The starter had failed. I replaced it and just as the OP described the prop engaged when the master was turned on.

 

[fholbert]

I have several hundred hours in 210s with IO-520s. Try this procedure:
1: mixture rich
2: throttle open 1/4 inch
3: master on
4: boost pump on high until fuel flow peaks (only takes a couple seconds)
5: key to start

I'd replace the 1/4" with 3 turns on the throttle. A turn being a full wrist turn, not 360 degrees. Won't all 210's have a vernier throttle?

When hot a little longer prime then 6 turns on the throttle and half way leaned.

 

[msmspilot]

I'd replace the 1/4" with 3 turns on the throttle. A turn being a full wrist turn, not 360 degrees. Won't all 210's have a vernier throttle?

When hot a little longer prime then 6 turns on the throttle and half way leaned.

The ones I've flown do not have a vernier throttle.

 

[Roger, Roger]

The Bendix ignition switch issue I know about and have experienced is when the ignition stays hot, not the starter. Isn't there an AD to check all Bendix ignition switches, see if they shut off when turned off, each annual? I know a lot of the flight schools have it on their check list to check after each flight.

Yes, that is the more commonly known issue due to there being an AD about it. However, there is an SB about the push-to-start switches welding the starter contacts as well. I've seen it happen at least once on an aircraft that did a TON of cycles (think, 16 start/stop cycles a day, every day, for 5 months of the year).

I have a IO520K and had a solenoid weld open in 2006. The starter had failed. I replaced it and just as the OP described the prop engaged when the master was turned on.

Point of order, that would be the solenoid welding shut. Like I said, whether it's the relay or the switch, that part of the problem should be an easy fix. As for the hard starting, well, could be technique, could be other things.

 

[ahsmatt7]

So I am not supposed to run the boost pump.....even on "LO"? This POH is messed up then. Im confused now...

Heres the starting checklist from the POH....

1. Mixture..RICH
2. Propeller....High RPM
3. Throttle...closed
4. Auxiliary fuel pump switch...on "LO"
5. Ignition key..."START"
6. Slowly advance throttle
7. Release ignition key when engine starts
8. Reset throttle to desired idle speed
9. Auxiliary fuel pump switch....off


Is this even remotely the right procedure?


Also, the POH says this about turning on the Aux fuel pump to "HI" if the engine isnt running.


NOTE
If the auxiliary pump is accidentally turned on "HI" (with master switch on) with the engine stopped, the intake manifolds will be flooded.


with that being said, msmspilot.....its ok to have the boost pump on hi for a couple seconds before starting?

 

[ppragman]

So I am not supposed to run the boost pump.....even on "LO"? This POH is messed up then. Im confused now...

Heres the starting checklist from the POH....

1. Mixture..RICH
2. Propeller....High RPM
3. Throttle...closed
4. Auxiliary fuel pump switch...on "LO"
5. Ignition key..."START"
6. Slowly advance throttle
7. Release ignition key when engine starts
8. Reset throttle to desired idle speed
9. Auxiliary fuel pump switch....off


Is this even remotely the right procedure?


Also, the POH says this about turning on the Aux fuel pump to "HI" if the engine isnt running.


NOTE
If the auxiliary pump is accidentally turned on "HI" (with master switch on) with the engine stopped, the intake manifolds will be flooded.


with that being said, msmspilot.....its ok to have the boost pump on hi for a couple seconds before starting?

Ok, with over 1300-1400hrs in IO520s, here's what I say:

First start of the day:

Mixture, Prop, Throttle, Full Forward
Lo Pressure Boostbump on until the fuel stabilizes, (usually a few seconds) then off.
Throttle to idle, or just a little bit off the stop.
Key the starter, it'll fire right up.

A hot start

Mixture, prop, throttle full forward.
Boost pump on then immediately off (like as fast as you can flick the switch)
Throttle to idle
Turn the key, it should start in a couple of blades.

Some of them (depending on how they're rigged) don't like the application of any boost pump on hot starts, but for the most part, that should work just fine.

 

[ahsmatt7]

Ok, with over 1300-1400hrs in IO520s, here's what I say:

First start of the day:

Mixture, Prop, Throttle, Full Forward
Lo Pressure Boostbump on until the fuel stabilizes, (usually a few seconds) then off.
Throttle to idle, or just a little bit off the stop.
Key the starter, it'll fire right up.

A hot start

Mixture, prop, throttle full forward.
Boost pump on then immediately off (like as fast as you can flick the switch)
Throttle to idle
Turn the key, it should start in a couple of blades.

Some of them (depending on how they're rigged) don't like the application of any boost pump on hot starts, but for the most part, that should work just fine.

On the hot start procedure, should I flick the boost pump to "HI" or "LO" ?

Its interesting to see how finicky planes can get and how different the published procedures are from the ones that actually work.

 

[msmspilot]

Also, the POH says this about turning on the Aux fuel pump to "HI" if the engine isnt running.


NOTE
If the auxiliary pump is accidentally turned on "HI" (with master switch on) with the engine stopped, the intake manifolds will be flooded.


with that being said, msmspilot.....its ok to have the boost pump on hi for a couple seconds before starting?

I realized I left out a step on my engine start procedure. Go full throttle, then run the boost pump on high until fuel flow peaks (it only takes about 2 seconds), then fuel pump off, and close the throttle to about the 1/4" open position.

I know what the POH says, but if you just run it for those couple of seconds, you won't flood anything. ppragman has it pretty much exactly right. I use a slightly different hot start procedure, but close enough.

Sometimes, the stuff in the POH just isn't right. Follow the stuff in the limitations section. It's regulatory. The stuff in other sections... well... none of the manufacturers got everything right, especially in these older planes.

 

[Fly_Unity]

Ok, with over 1300-1400hrs in IO520s, here's what I say:

First start of the day:

Mixture, Prop, Throttle, Full Forward
Lo Pressure Boostbump on until the fuel stabilizes, (usually a few seconds) then off.
Throttle to idle, or just a little bit off the stop.
Key the starter, it'll fire right up.

A hot start

Mixture, prop, throttle full forward.
Boost pump on then immediately off (like as fast as you can flick the switch)
Throttle to idle
Turn the key, it should start in a couple of blades.

Some of them (depending on how they're rigged) don't like the application of any boost pump on hot starts, but for the most part, that should work just fine.

Exactly how I do it. Works great.

 

[ahsmatt7]

I realized I left out a step on my engine start procedure. Go full throttle, then run the boost pump on high until fuel flow peaks (it only takes about 2 seconds), then fuel pump off, and close the throttle to about the 1/4" open position.

I know what the POH says, but if you just run it for those couple of seconds, you won't flood anything. ppragman has it pretty much exactly right. I use a slightly different hot start procedure, but close enough.

Sometimes, the stuff in the POH just isn't right. Follow the stuff in the limitations section. It's regulatory. The stuff in other sections... well... none of the manufacturers got everything right, especially in these older planes.

Awesome! Thanks for the clarification. Everyone helped out a lot. Thank you all of you!

 

[msmspilot]

Awesome! Thanks for the clarification. Everyone helped out a lot. Thank you all of you!

No problem. Let us know how it works out. I do agree with the other guys that there is something wrong with the starter, but once that's fixed, these starting procedures should help you out.