leave out the Kilo

RetiredATLATC

RetiredATLATC

Well-Known Member
Ok, so I've been gone for a while, but some of you may remember me as the wise-ass smart aleck ATL TRACON controller that spent a great deal of my time on the ATC boards "guiding" some of the noobs through the application, hiring, interviewing, atc question phases of their new careers.

Be that as it may, I have something that is chapping my you know what. I understand the transition to ICAO standards push recently, but what is it with a great deal of the pilots I deal with on a day to day basis in and around ATL in the satellite sectors adding Kilo to their departure point and to their destination? "N12345, we just departed Kilo Papa Delta Kilo and are heading to Kilo Papa Lima Zulu Uniform" (a 15 mile flight) You're not transitioning through oceanic sectors, another countries airspace, or through the international dateline.

When you call me, I am trying to type into the ARTS computer your flight information a quickly as I can so you can get flight following all the way, through multiple facilities, to your destination. because someone else is going to call me in ten seconds with a request of his/her own, and when I start entering the dept point and the destination and you use Kilo, and I have to back track and then have to deal with separation issues with IFR's, a lot of times there is not time to go back and start over and I then only give you a "local" code (where I then cannot hand you off to the next facility).

Make it easy on yourself, get the flight following you deserve. All the controller wants after he acknowledges you on the frequency is; "N12345, 5 miles NE of PDK, requesting 9500 feet to ILM" IF the controller is not aware of the three letter ID for your destination, he will ask you what it is, but please leave out the Kilo.

Man I missed you guys:)
 
X2

It always seems that the pilots who insist on trying to bunch everything into a single transmission, speak so fast that everything they say runs together, or have the horrible radios where we hear about every third word.
 
Good to see you back ATL - personally I never use "K" in front of the ID, but I'm probably not doing it right when I say I'm off "Peachtree" or "County" either ;)

Bp244
 
On the flip side of this though, I have personally had some confusion. On a particular airway XYZ vor is ten miles ahead of XYZ airport so therefore you come to the vor first. We had been navigating using vor's the entire trip and of at one point we were "cleared direct to XYZ". Now, in my mind I'm pretty sure he meant the airport, BUT I did have to ask for clarification. He did indeed mean the airport but what happens if he meant the vor and we continue on our merry way after passing over?
 
ATLTRACON said:
Ok, so I've been gone for a while, but some of you may remember me as the wise-ass smart aleck ATL TRACON controller that spent a great deal of my time on the ATC boards "guiding" some of the noobs through the application, hiring, interviewing, atc question phases of their new careers.

Be that as it may, I have something that is chapping my you know what. I understand the transition to ICAO standards push recently, but what is it with a great deal of the pilots I deal with on a day to day basis in and around ATL in the satellite sectors adding Kilo to their departure point and to their destination? "N12345, we just departed Kilo Papa Delta Kilo and are heading to Kilo Papa Lima Zulu Uniform" (a 15 mile flight) You're not transitioning through oceanic sectors, another countries airspace, or through the international dateline.

When you call me, I am trying to type into the ARTS computer your flight information a quickly as I can so you can get flight following all the way, through multiple facilities, to your destination. because someone else is going to call me in ten seconds with a request of his/her own, and when I start entering the dept point and the destination and you use Kilo, and I have to back track and then have to deal with separation issues with IFR's, a lot of times there is not time to go back and start over and I then only give you a "local" code (where I then cannot hand you off to the next facility).

Make it easy on yourself, get the flight following you deserve. All the controller wants after he acknowledges you on the frequency is; "N12345, 5 miles NE of PDK, requesting 9500 feet to ILM" IF the controller is not aware of the three letter ID for your destination, he will ask you what it is, but please leave out the Kilo.

Man I missed you guys:)
Click to expand...

As a pilot, I always give the NAME of the facility, and then the IDENTIFIER if requested...via "I have no idea where TTD is, but I know where Portland Troutdale is". :)

I guess "Cleared to tango tango delta via" is better, marginally, than "cleared to destination via", though.
 
+1 million


You might as well tell me what runway you're planning on landing at the destination. It's just as useless information as "kilo" is.

It should be as simple as this.


"XXX approach, Skyhawk 172CS, over East Timbuktu(an airport/significant landmark not some random backwater town you know only because you grew up there), requesting flight following to Podunk at 7500.

Skyhawk172CS XXX Approach, say 3 letter ID for destination and standby.

Podunk is Papa Oscar Delta, 2CS
 
On the flip side of this though, I have personally had some confusion. On a particular airway XYZ vor is ten miles ahead of XYZ airport so therefore you come to the vor first. We had been navigating using vor's the entire trip and of at one point we were "cleared direct to XYZ". Now, in my mind I'm pretty sure he meant the airport, BUT I did have to ask for clarification. He did indeed mean the airport but what happens if he meant the vor and we continue on our merry way after passing over?
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Bingo. Ok maybe Kilo sounds stupid (not stupid enough for me to actually care) but the .0000001 of a second it takes to say Kilo or "airport" does save a lot of time over having to ask for clarification on if you're going to a VOR or airport.
 
JordanD said:
Bingo. Ok maybe Kilo sounds stupid (not stupid enough for me to actually care) but the .0000001 of a second it takes to say Kilo or "airport" does save a lot of time over having to ask for clarification on if you're going to a VOR or airport.
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We're talking about flight following here not an IFR clearance so we don't care which one it is.

BTW the next time you plan on landing at a VOR and not an airport put me in your life insurance plans.
 
boondr said:
We're talking about flight following here not an IFR clearance so we don't care which one it is.

BTW the next time you plan on landing at a VOR and not an airport put me in your life insurance plans.
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Ok, didn't catch that from the OP. But, we're having a learning conversation here....slow the roll with the BTW stuff. :beer:
 
Oh crap, I heard a Cirrus auto pilot tuner the other day who was on VFR flight following and asked for the route...

"were uh heading Gee Pee Esss direct to Victor Papa Lima Cuebeeeaak Mike (VPLQM is a visual checkpoint for the Queen Mary on the LA TAC) then northbound via the EeeL Aah Corridor.

I puked up a little bit.
 
My personal favorite at my bravo. Local college with a part 141 program and a call sign that never does local stuff that isn't at their home airport. Approach XYZ12 I'm a Delta Victor Two Zero One Zero miles south of Kilo Alpha Bravo Charlie I'd like an ILS to runway XY at Kilo Alpha Bravo Charlie. I'm up to my eyeballs in Charlies Deltas and Alphas about halfway through the neophite pilot blurting that out in stutters. Meanwhile I get about 4 corp jets check on and an A-6 screaming toward me at 500 knots 10 out from the airport.

If its 50 miles from my primary airport I probably could do with an inbound to podunk field. If you have a call sign at a 141 just tell me if you're a diamond or piper in this case. Either way, I'm not about to jam a Lear down your rear. Heck tell me you're inbound for the pre beer ILS and I can put two and two together. :beer:

If I don't know the airport the almighty ACE/IDS display sure does. If I need to ask a general heading or area, just bear with me. Its a tough call as to when to phonetically spell things out, but 40-50 miles out from the primary airport, just say it. We'll ask if we dont know. Part 141 is turning into a junior birdman/woman school though and I can understand the pressures for the instructor. I left that world when I was told to fly 3 mile wide downwinds in the DV20 because thats what the big iron boys would do. Never mind I'd not be able to glide to the runway with an engine failure at TPA.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
You can file IFR to a VOR, can you not? Nothing says one would have to land at the VOR, but perhaps someone only wants IFR to a certain point.
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Absolutely. Military guys do it all the time. I have also seen the occasional GA pilot do it, usually in conjunction with instrument training, then request practice approaches or cancel once they get to the NAVAID.

As far as the whole VOR/Airport with the same identifier ambiguity is concerned, if I see MAW (Malden VORTAC/Airport) as the last element in your flight plan, I'm assuming you're flying to the airport, not the VOR, even though they are separated by about 5-6 miles. If it is listed between other fixes/NAVAIDs, I'm assuming you're flying to the VOR (ie., CGI..MAW..MEM). In fact in most cases I've seen, the computer makes the same assumption or worst case it draws its route to the NAVAID, then to the airport. In either instance, you end up at the same spot if your destination uses the same identifier.
 
ATLTRACON said:
...what is it with a great deal of the pilots I deal with on a day to day basis in and around ATL in the satellite sectors adding Kilo...
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IMHO, they have a GPS that, if you have used one, you realize that every airport you enter must start with K(ilo). Also, on DUATS, fltplan.com, etc. if you are navigating between airports and use another airport in the flight plan you must also input a K(ilo) in front. YMMV, and a lot of people don't understand the instrument environment so they freak out when in or around Class B airports and talking to appr/dep.
 
Stomp16 said:
On the flip side of this though, I have personally had some confusion. On a particular airway XYZ vor is ten miles ahead of XYZ airport so therefore you come to the vor first. We had been navigating using vor's the entire trip and of at one point we were "cleared direct to XYZ". Now, in my mind I'm pretty sure he meant the airport, BUT I did have to ask for clarification. He did indeed mean the airport but what happens if he meant the vor and we continue on our merry way after passing over?
Click to expand...

http://bit.ly/b206QA
 
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