No Gyro PAR
- Thread starter jhugz
- Start date
Did you do it the pansy-ass way, with "ILS backup", or get a real GCA approach?
PAR accuracy is 25 feet either side of runway center. Only problem is, PARs are really only available at NAS/MCASs, and at some AFBs.....as the USAF is slowly phasing them out here CONUS.
Have tons of ASR/PARs under the belt and a good GCA controller can really work you down well. Did you read my paper I wrote on this IAPs?
jhugz
Well-Known Member
Nope w/ did the PAR into 3L which only has a TACAN APP and GPS APP into it. No guidance beside the controller. No I haven't read your paper, link me big guy.
jhugz
Well-Known Member
That's some good stuff, thanks.
Ollie
Well-Known Member
As awesome as they can be, please do yourself a favor and never try one into an Army airfield - even if it's an emergency. With all the time the GCA controllers spend playing X-Box you'd think they could figure out how work the scope.
I executed an emergency PAR to an Army FOB in actual IMC in Northern Iraq a few years ago without the benefit of any sort of backup navigational information. The way the controller kiddie was talking I was right on course and would be breaking out right over the numbers at any second. When I finally acquired visual contact with the ground I was at about 100 AGL directly over the division basketball court and more than a little perplexed about how I ended up there. At that point it was an easy decision to land in the basketball court, pull the seat cushion out of my butthole, and try to ascertain exactly where on the base I was. Once I got my bearings I called tower and requested a SVFR clearance to reposition back to parking. The moral of my story is that an Army radar approach is like a box of chocolates.
I executed an emergency PAR to an Army FOB in actual IMC in Northern Iraq a few years ago without the benefit of any sort of backup navigational information. The way the controller kiddie was talking I was right on course and would be breaking out right over the numbers at any second. When I finally acquired visual contact with the ground I was at about 100 AGL directly over the division basketball court and more than a little perplexed about how I ended up there. At that point it was an easy decision to land in the basketball court, pull the seat cushion out of my butthole, and try to ascertain exactly where on the base I was. Once I got my bearings I called tower and requested a SVFR clearance to reposition back to parking. The moral of my story is that an Army radar approach is like a box of chocolates.
Blackhawk
Well-Known Member
Wait a minute- it's a tactical environment and we don't need instrument approaches. That's why they let all the Iraqi NAVAIDs go down. At least the Brits kept the ILS in Basrah operational.
ghogue
Well-Known Member
I won't argue that may be your experience, but as Blackhawk mentioned above, that was in a tactical environment and probably not indicative of approaches flown at Army airfields in the US. I have flown many hundreds of Army PAR approaches, not just in the US, but throughout the world, and every one, every one, was directly to the numbers.
I remember on one occasion, the weather went south in a hurry. The weather was as close to zero-zero as it could be, and I had no choice except to continue the PAR. At DA I couldn't see a thing, but the controller continued with instructions, just as MikeD described above, and at approximately 50 AGL, I picked up the centerline stripe and was able to make a successful landing.
And by-the-way, Mike, I'm sure you just forgot to mention it, but it's not just NAS/MCAS and AFB's that have GCA's. Just about every Army airfield has them, too.
gary
Blackhawk
Well-Known Member
I was being somewhat sarcastic. Typical Army let all the NAVAIDs go down so that when IIMC was encountered you were often hosed.
ghogue
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I thought I may have sensed a bit of sarcasm, but wasn't sure. However, in regards to what Ollie wrote, have you experienced poor PAR's, and were they just in Iraq, or have you experienced that in the US as well?
///AMG
Well-Known Member
PAR's can be kind of hit or miss depending on whether the field you are flying at is familiar with your aircraft (and it's normal approach speeds), and if there is a student controller working you (common in a lot of places). Either way, they normally will get you to the right place by DH, but at times, the amount of corrections on final can be a little excessive (even with good heading/ROD discipline). My pet peeve is when they can't make "above" and "below" sound different from one another.....more of an issue in the south with folks that already are hard to understand, but can be a big SA suck as well. No gyro PAR can be just as accurate, but I'd venture a guess that this one depends a lot more on their familiarity with your aircraft, normal airspeed, and turn radius. I normally make it a point to give a courtesy call to them if I am doing anything non-standard (ie single engine approach...different speeds, etc). Since PAR's are the only precision approaches my community can legally fly in US airspace, I have become a bit of a connoisseur I guess you could say. And yes, I know folks who have flown them to touchdown in 0/0 conditions in extremis. Very accurate with a good controller and smooth pilot technique.
Edit: must caveat my last point and say that this would be a very BAD idea in an aircraft that flares to land
Edit: must caveat my last point and say that this would be a very BAD idea in an aircraft that flares to land
Ollie
Well-Known Member
I think the overriding issue in Army PAR approaches in tactical vs. non-tactical environments is controller proficiency. In Iraq the vast majority of GCA controllers are green suiters whereas in the States they're civilians. I've executed some fantastic PARs to Army facilities but they were all handled civilian controllers. I honestly can't think of any primary Army airfields that don't have civilian ATC.
Blackhawk
Well-Known Member
PARs in the US have usually been very accurate. About the only time I had issues was when I got the "controller training in progress"; even then the voice usually changed as the supervisor took over if things started going down hill.
Problem I have had lately is actually getting a PAR or an ASR. In the last 6 years every time I have asked I've been told unable.
Problem I have had lately is actually getting a PAR or an ASR. In the last 6 years every time I have asked I've been told unable.
ghogue
Well-Known Member
Ollie,
I'm making the assumption you're on active duty. I'm retired, so you have more recent knowledge than I do. I don't doubt that most, controllers at Army airfields are civilian, but I think there must still be plenty of military guys working in the US too. Otherwise, they would have no place to rotate to after returning from the Middle East or other locations, but I'm just talking. Not sure how it's being done today, but as long as there good, it doesn't matter.
In my experience, most, if not all the controllers were military, but I know that must have changed in the intervening years. Just know I had exceptional service on the many PAR's I flew, and always knew if the need arose, they would get me down when the chips were down.
My son fly's 60's in Iraq right now, so I'm curious how he feels about it. I have a hunch he'll say what you and Blackhawk have said.
gary
///AMG
Well-Known Member
No idea about Army, but I'm not aware of any civilian contractors working ATC at any of the NAS I've been at.....aside from Meridian where civilian operated approach control was co-located. Generally there was a more senior controller on each shift (ie a chief or at least an experienced first class......LDO's being downstairs and readily available), and then some junior controllers in training. I've had good and not so good, but either way, I always find it to be easier than other types of approaches....that and it is comforting to hear a controller's voice who has you on radar on those really low wx approaches
Ollie
Well-Known Member
I'm presently on AD. In fact, I have a friend who flies VIP 60s who shares a last name with you.
The Army controllers are all lumped together in a company which falls under the General Support Aviation Battalion. Upon return to the States they'll be out of jobs. All of the controllers at our airfield are civilians which leaves the military controllers to let their skills languish as they pull police call, gate guard, and every other insipid detail battalion can find for them. When it's time to deploy again they'll go through some training and find themselves fully immersed in a high traffic environment possibly without the necessary level of skill. It's virtually the same song and dance with Army Aviators...
ghogue
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the updated situation. I guess I'm glad I served earlier if that's what it has become.
ghogue
Well-Known Member
Ollie,
As you've by now figured out, that's my son. I'm glad to have met you, even if just on this forum. He voiced the same issues you brought up, as I suspected he would. As I mentioned before, things have really changed.
Anyway, just wanted to mention that. All you guys fly safe.
gary