How...improve...pilot: ACM breakaway convo :-)

[Boris Badenov]

OK, so how do you explain someone who's gone through the maelstrom of getting behind the wheel of an Eagle deciding it would be a good idea to head down to 2k agl and turnfight a straight-winged, absurdly subsonic giant-gun-with-wings? Did this guy slip through the cracks or what?

 

[///AMG]

OK, so how do you explain someone who's gone through the maelstrom of getting behind the wheel of an Eagle deciding it would be a good idea to head down to 2k agl and turnfight a straight-winged, absurdly subsonic giant-gun-with-wings? Did this guy slip through the cracks or what?

Probably falls into the overconfidence category I'd think. The controlled part of aggression would be being smarter than the other guy and not committing to a fight that your jet isn't meant for. Wait for him to make a like mistake with his aircraft, and then work to capitalize on that. One fundamental of BFM is bugging when things aren't going your way. There is of course a point in any engagement where you have exhausted your options for a bug (see my example above), so one of the ideas is to not be so blindly aggressive that you find yourself boxed into a corner in this way. F-15 has big motors, and would seem to have every ability to bug out and redefine the fight on better terms (or just walk away in the worst case).

 

[Boris Badenov]

Probably falls into the overconfidence category I'd think. The controlled part of aggression would be being smarter than the other guy and not committing to a fight that your jet isn't meant for. Wait for him to make a like mistake with his aircraft, and then work to capitalize on that.

I would think that the mistake would be being on the deck beneath a firebreathing airplane-killing machine with a thrust to weight ratio that looks like a kindergarten equation for the retarded. Y'all are making me worry about the good sense of our future warfighters. I mean outside of the bar.

 

[///AMG]

I would think that the mistake would be being on the deck beneath a firebreathing airplane-killing machine with a thrust to weight ratio that looks like a kindergarten equation for the retarded. Y'all are making me worry about the good sense of our future warfighters. I mean outside of the bar.

Yes, obviously the Hog was not meant to excel in the A/A arena. That isn't to say that there isn't a realm where it could get a lucky shot.

 

[derg]

Just don't go below the hard-deck.

 

[derg]

 

[Boris Badenov]

Whatever, Dough. You're Dangerous.

 

[MikeD]

Yes, obviously the Hog was not meant to excel in the A/A arena. That isn't to say that there isn't a realm where it could get a lucky shot.

The simple fact of the matter is, if YOU (pointy nose guy) attempt to fight the Hog on MY terms.......ie-drop down and dirty with me in the horizontal.......you will get killed. Simple as that. You have to fight me on YOUR terms, which is what the guys who were hawking the fight were doing.....they may not have had many advantages up there against me, but they certainly weren't giving up any advantages either. What those smart Eagle guys did that the Lt wingman didn't do, was not let either ego, overconfidence in his airframe, underconfidence in our airframe/pilot, or simply the desire to "mix it up" resulting in getting in over his head.....the smart Eagle guys let none of these (or combination thereof) force them to make a dumb decision. They lived, the Lt didn't...figuratively speaking. You come fight me on my terms (ie- low altitude, in the horizontal), and I'll take you one circle or two circle, since I can likely out rate and out radius you all day. You could probably pull your way around to match some, however the g-loading you'll be under to do that vs what I'll be under will be very different. Of course, if you fight me on YOUR terms.....using your advantages in the vertical, then you've seriously handicapped me.....not to where I'm instantly dead, mind you, but you've taken away many of my advantages I previously had.......essentially keeping me on the defensive vs giving me any chance to go on the offensive; thus keeping me right where you want me.

AMG: Insofar as a "lucky shot", as you term it.......do not underestimate those from the attack community and what they can bring to an A/A fight. We may not do BVR, but if you're going to press to the merge with us, you better know what you're doing. Or you'll be making a nylon letdown at best, or no letdown at worst. As some old-school VA guys from the A-7 days.....they'll probably tell you. I'm sure there has to be some still around the VFA community. Point being, it's more than just luck, there's a good amount of skill involved in how we manage even our own always-limited energy in the dogfight arena.

 

[Hacker15e]

OK, so how do you explain someone who's gone through the maelstrom of getting behind the wheel of an Eagle deciding it would be a good idea to head down to 2k agl and turnfight a straight-winged, absurdly subsonic giant-gun-with-wings? Did this guy slip through the cracks or what?

Y'all are making me worry about the good sense of our future warfighters.

Reference my posts earlier in the thread where I state that I've whacked all manner of major weapon system fighter pilots in a T-38. Everyone makes mistakes, and air combat is such a dynamic environment where there are many wrong options and only a few right ones.

What I don't mention in my posts about the David-vs-Goliath T-38 kills is the hundreds of other times that I've been absolutely axe-murdered in the T-38 by those same big gray fighters. We are only giving you one small piece of the overall big picture when we talk about these single BFM/ACM/ACT engagements without giving the larger context of what happened the rest of the day. The day I gunned the F-15C Weapons School instructor occurred among 3 other engagements where I never even made it within 10 miles of the F-15Cs. I could say basically the same thing about any of the days which I killed any of those other fighters -- the vast majority of the time I was getting my ass handed to me, and amongst that ball-beating I got in a few good shots.

I've actually starred in the "F-15 gets killed by A-10" show. The very first time I ever fought an A-10, it was a 9K defensive setup for the Hog. I wasn't ready for the rate-and-radius he threw down and I subsequently lost the fight. Every engagement after that, however, I used the vertical -- the area in which my jet had an advantage -- and I easily won. The whole point of training is to make those kinds of mistakes when the penalty isn't your life.

Yes, guys make mistakes, sometimes more often than we want to admit. The objective of all this practicing, though, is to make that the exception rather than the norm, and in my experience that is true in the fighter community (both in the USAF and USN/USMC).

 

[bunk22]

I don't have much to add from a flyer's perspective as I'm not a pointy nose guy. I'll get to instruct in some Phase 2 stuff but probably not ACM unless the powers that be let me. It's all timing but it would be nice to fly some of the basics. I think I can get some back seat rides with another IP. I gotta do it at least a few times.

From a historical perspective, there has been the occasional Mig downed by props, such as the Korean War. At least one Sea Fury kill over a Mig-15 and an F4U bagged a Mig-15 though he was shot down immediately after by another Mig. Or even Panthers bagging superior Mig-15's like in November 1952. In Vietnam, two Mig-17 kills by A-1's and a Mig-17 downed by an OV-1. Maybe that whole overconfidence but if those engagements happened on a regular basis, the jet would most likely be the overall winner.

 

[///AMG]

AMG: Insofar as a "lucky shot", as you term it.......do not underestimate those from the attack community and what they can bring to an A/A fight. We may not do BVR, but if you're going to press to the merge with us, you better know what you're doing. Or you'll be making a nylon letdown at best, or no letdown at worst. As some old-school VA guys from the A-7 days.....they'll probably tell you. I'm sure there has to be some still around the VFA community. Point being, it's more than just luck, there's a good amount of skill involved in how we manage even our own always-limited energy in the dogfight arena.

Fair enough, perhaps "lucky" was a poor choice of words. I meant what you previously described. One of the better ACM IP's I had in advanced was actually a former A-7 driver. We basically had no chance against him if he didn't want us to

 

[///AMG]

I don't have much to add from a flyer's perspective as I'm not a pointy nose guy. I'll get to instruct in some Phase 2 stuff but probably not ACM unless the powers that be let me. It's all timing but it would be nice to fly some of the basics. I think I can get some back seat rides with another IP. I gotta do it at least a few times.

Don't let the pointy nose guys intimidate you The guy who really made the 1 v 1 light go off in my head was an E-2 guy.

 

[MikeD]

Fair enough, perhaps "lucky" was a poor choice of words. I meant what you previously described. One of the better ACM IP's I had in advanced was actually a former A-7 driver. We basically had no chance against him if he didn't want us to

Thats no hit on you, I just see any number of former VF or AF pointy-nose sqdn guys who automatically assume that the VA/attack sqdn guys were automatically meat on a platter, which really depended.......it depended on that pointy nose guy; but still we had tricks up our sleeve. "Hog popping" was the key phrase that the C-model Eagle guys used to use. To which the response would be "we'll see." And I mean lets toss out the BVR stuff, and assume ROE requires you to push in for a VID before you can shoot. Then we'll see.

And if you really want to see what you're made of, lets toss out the heaters from the equation too, and handcuff ourselves to gun only.

 

[derg]

Unky Mikey, tell us that story of the Buff that got a kill during Red Flag when someone meandered into the cone!

 

[bunk22]

Don't let the pointy nose guys intimidate you The guy who really made the 1 v 1 light go off in my head was an E-2 guy.

He probably was an FTS guy who had been there quite some time. I have about 2.5 years left so not so sure how much of phase 2 I'll be allowed to learn and instruct. That whole what can you offer over time is the key. I'll at least get to do wep dets I think.

 

[ryan1234]

And if you really want to see what you're made of, lets toss out the heaters from the equation too, and handcuff ourselves to gun only.

Word on the street was that recently an A-10 got a F-22 gun 'kill', complete with the cam and all.... I don't know the circumstances or if it actually happened... but the "word" came from an F-22 crew chief.

 

[///AMG]

Word on the street was that recently an A-10 got a F-22 gun 'kill', complete with the cam and all.... I don't know the circumstances or if it actually happened... but the "word" came from an F-22 crew chief.

Haven't heard that one yet, but have seen the HUD snapshot of a Growler with pipper on a Raptor. Too bad they carry no gun

 

[bunk22]

I'm back to share my latest tribute to legendary Tomcat moments is history.

This is my interpretation of one of the greatest Hoser "Now, this is no S*^t" stories. For those of you all not familiar with the famous Tomcat v Eagle engagement...here it is as Hoser described it. This passage has been approved for use here by the legend himself.

Now, this is no ****! Towards the end of the AIM/ACE -- EVAL, things had heated up between the Eagle and Turkey pilots. At the Nellis O’club many innuendoes and challenges had been thrown out as a result of the high profile dog fights between the Tomcat/Eagle Blue Force and the F-5Es. The Blue Force F-15 drivers were threatened with a court martial, flying rubber dog **** outta Hong Kong and having their birthday taken away if they even thought about locking horns with ACEVAL Tomcats.

When the test sorties were finally over, a couple of F-15 instructors in the 415th training squadron took the bait. “Turk” Pentecost and I were a section. Turk was not nearly as cocky, arrogant and boisterous as D-Hose, but just as aggressive, smart, devious and just as good a stick. We briefed a very wide hook, an altitude split of 10k ft. and a radar sort @ 25nm by Bill “Hill Billy” Hill and “Fearless” Frank Schumacher. All pre-merge heat and radar missiles didn’t count. It was GUNS only at the merge. The wide hook enabled Turk and D-Hose to split the fight into (2)1v1’s, with one Turkey high, one low and lots of lateral separation.

As Hill Billy and D-hose closed for a 250ft, guns kill on their Eagle, the comm went like this:
D-hose: "Where are you Turk?"
Fearless: "Right above you Hoser"
D-hose: "We got two cons! Who’s out front?"
Turk (mildly offended): "Who do ya think?"
Both Eagles were gunned, “knock it off” was called, and the Tomcats RTB’d with a 500 knot, 6.5g, half second break at Nellis…cuz
that was our salute and tribute to our fine VX-4 maintenance personnel.

Knowing the gun camera film would be destroyed by the Nellis Photo lab, it was covertly sent to a secret contact at Grumman for processing. Bout a month later, December 6, the door slams open and General Knight, with 2 of his staff, doggie wobble heads entered demanding to know “who and where are Hoser and Turk?” Falcon (J.W. Taylor), OinC, stepped up asking if he could be of assistance. The General respondes with, “Your fighter jocks have no idea how their playful antics affect important political decisions!” Well, as General Knight proceeded to explain, Japan had contracted for twenty one F-15s, but an article in Aviation Week had talked about the F-14 being superior to the Eagle. With gun camera film to prove it, Japan was considering buying F-14s instead.

The General told JW he wanted ALL copies of the gun camera film, the TVSU/VCR tapes, and audio recordings on his desk by 0900 the next day. He was obviously pissed when he arrived, but as a result of the humility and contrition displayed by Turk and D-hose, he was satisfied that his mission was accomplished. Of course, D-hose and Turk didn’t want to embarrass the F-15 community, and they never mentioned the incident again…UNTIL NOW! ……. A few months later at a VX-4 at JW’s , D-Hose sez “Hey Falcon, I know ya got a copy of that 16mm gun film,,,, how bout it? JW bugs for a few and returns with film I have in my hand right now.

PS: The 8” x 10” single frame of the 16 mm gun film on my bulkhead in my ‘ war room’ shows a F-15 thru a F-14 HUD, radar lock, @250ft, Vc zero, piper on the pilot’s helmet, gun selected, No X over the ‘G’ = master arm on = half detent on trigger depressed, (which activates gun camera and opens the gun gass purge doors) with… Zero rounds remaining……. Good Thing!!!


VR D-Hose, HAARRR!

Here is the original image from the Tomcat gun camera...

And the model...

 

[Hacker15e]

The part I can't figure out is why he's proud that the rounds count reads zero. There's no way to prove that it didn't read zero in the seconds leading up to this one particular frame.

No bullets = no kill