Southwest buys Airtran

[greaper007]

You're spot on! Its funny how everyone defends SWA on this, because their pay is tops right now. Forgetting that before 9/11 SWA was nowhere near the top in pay, yet still required the type. The same people that defend SWA will kick and scream about regionals requiring an RJ course! Why? Because a regional pays less than 25k to start, so its a travesty. SWA you can top out at 200K so it ok. PFT!

Let SWA cut their pay by 50%, then lets see how many of these defenders still think its ok to pay for a type to work there.

Here's the deal with PFJ PFT. It's neither, because if you come in with the type rating there's no requirement. My dad was hired at SWA in about 1981. He came over from People Express with a 737 type rating that PE paid for. He didn't have to buy a type rating. Anyone that was hired at SWA from another airline and flew 737s didn't have to buy a type rating. SWA is just trying to keep their training costs down. Think about the millions they save by not having to pay for type ratings.

Two, comparing SWA pay to any other carrier's pay pre-9-11 is an exercise in futility. My father would tell me stories about pilots from other carriers giving him flack in the hotel van about his pay. He'd listen and then calmly tell them about profit sharing and how much his stock options were worth. That usually shut them up.

My dad told me about a retirement party he went to a few years ago for his sponsor at SWA. After a few beers my dad started asking him how much he was leaving with. He hemed and hawed, talked about his 3 houses and King Air. Finally a few beers later he admitted...north of five million.

Pilots that went to SWA pre-9-11 were entrepreneurial, and it shows. My dad was an ex A-4, F-14 and F-4 pilot and when hiring picked back up in the mid 80s he could have gone anywhere. At that time the place to be was NWA or Us Air, he had all kinds of friends telling him he was stupid to stay at a rinky dink airline like SWA. But, he was Captain after 2 years and still wanted to hold onto the money. It's not all about the hourly wage.

 

[SIUav8er]

3. SWA's model has always been 737's. However there are not any airlines available to merge with that have all 737's. If fact there aren't any other all 737 airlines. So if SWA waited for a merger opportunity with a 737 airline--it would never have come.

good points, but Alaska has an all 737 fleet... not sure if you grouped Horizon as part of AS though.

 

[SIUav8er]

Think about the millions they save by not having to pay for type ratings.

Umm, they still have to train their pilots. The initial training and checkride you do at any airline is equivalent to obtaining a type rating!

 

[greaper007]

Umm, they still have to train their pilots. The initial training and checkride you do at any airline is equivalent to obtaining a type rating!

What about the training costs saved by not having to train check airmen to give types. I understand the arguments, apparently they were about to do away with the program pre 9-11 because it was becoming harder to attract pilots. Then the s hit the f and there wasn't a need to.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Wow. Crazy day. Started with my phone ringing off the hook at 6:30am, and I'm just now winding down. Going to be a crazy next couple of years.

I'll try to answer as much as I can here, but obviously I'm under confidentiality agreement, so I'll only be able to say what is released publicly.

I can't wait to hear todd's comments. It looks like AirTran management took the easy way out with the golden parachute rather than the fight that was brewing with the pilots. In the end, I would think this will turn out much better for the Airtran pilots

It remains to be seen whether it will be better for our pilots or not. A lot depends on the seniority list integration (SLI). We also have the issue of not having a new contract, even though we won't be operating under a joint contract for probably 2+ years. That still needs to be addressed.

I'm sure the 717's will be gone, before the final integration of the two companies. Just a guess...

Nope. The 717s are staying, and SWA intends to use them for the thinner routes that can't support a 737. The 717 leases don't start expiring until 2017.

Also, since there are two different unions a vote will have to be taken to determine which one will stay.

Maybe, maybe not. Depends on how the NMB looks at it. A vote isn't required since we're so much smaller than the SWA pilot group. The NMB could decide that an election is appropriate, but maybe not. In any case, we are so far outnumbered that I can't imagine SWAPA not surviving.

That guy is an Eastern scab that no one likes. He has screwed over thousands of pilots.

Careful, we have two harmonica players, not just the guy you're thinking of.

Todd, I've got your SWAPA avatar ready to go, just let me know when you want me to change you to it.

No thanks, man. I'm sticking with the sailboat. It looks like I might actually be able to afford one pretty soon.

Gonna need to change is screen name to SWA_pilot also.

No way! Proud of the Tran heritage. I'm going to stick with it.

Kind of interested in what they will do with DFW's AirTran routes.

DFW will be going away in favor of Love Field.

Then went on to say they plan on expanding ATL? Hmmm last I checked DAL already controls the ATL feed

We'll see about that.

My thoughts exactly. I like AirTran dangit. Don't take away my cheap business class and my XM radio!

Well, the business class seats seem to be going away. Sucks, I know. The XM radio and WiFi aren't as clear yet, though. They may stay, or may go. No word yet.

Good luck guys. I wouldn't wish a merger or acquisition on my worst enemy. Even when they "work" and they're relatively low drama, they're a massive pain in the butt.

No kidding. So much for having any semblance of a life for the next two years. Nothing like another two years of negotiations and arbitration.

I hope I can still make it to NJC!

Now I wonder if Southwest is going to want CRJ-200s flying out of MKE as "Skywest operated in codeshare with Southwest operated by AirTran"?

We'll have to see what the joint contract ends up with. The current SWAPA contract doesn't allow for any domestic code sharing, though.

 

[ChasenSFO]

Thanks for the insight on all that, Todd.

 

[pullup]

In a nutshell, from 1979-1997, SWA could only have routes within Texas and to states that touched Texas. In 1997 Alabama, Kansas, and Mississippi were added to the Wright Zone. In 2005 Missouri was added too. In 2006, after MUCH nasty debate (and a thrown block by Jet Blue) SWA was allowed to fly to destinations outside the Wright Zone, but they have to make a stop within the Zone enroute.

The Wright Amendment, penned by the Ft Worth congressman Jim Wright, expires after 35 years-which is 2014.

What it means for SWA, is that come November 1st, 2014-they can fly where they want, when they want, and how they want.

I'm confused by this...if I go to reserve a ticket from Buffalo to Orlando/Vegas/Baltimore I can go direct without stopping in the Wright zone. Am I missing something?

 

[TripSix]

I'm confused by this...if I go to reserve a ticket from Buffalo to Orlando/Vegas/Baltimore I can go direct without stopping in the Wright zone. Am I missing something?

No, you aren't - I typed it in Notepad and my phone ate some of the changes that came about in 2006. Sorry, it was late and the Pack just lost

The amendment is an operational restriction, put in place after SWA refused to move to DFW. It expires, soon. That's it in an even smaller nutshell. I am sure the text is out there somewhere in Internet-land

 

[Hacker15e]

In a nutshell, from 1979-1997, SWA could only have routes within Texas and to states that touched Texas. In 1997 Alabama, Kansas, and Mississippi were added to the Wright Zone. In 2005 Missouri was added too. In 2006, after MUCH nasty debate (and a thrown block by Jet Blue) SWA was allowed to fly to destinations outside the Wright Zone, but they have to make a stop within the Zone enroute.

If that's the case, then how are they able to fly from, say, SEA-LAS?

 

[jtrain609]

If that's the case, then how are they able to fly from, say, SEA-LAS?

The Wright Zone only applies to flights to/from KDAL.

 

[Hacker15e]

The Wright Zone only applies to flights to/from KDAL.

Ahhhh...a key bit of info I was missing in the discussion.

 

[WacoFan]

Ahhhh...a key bit of info I was missing in the discussion.

It was really frustrating. Any flight to and from DAL had to stop in a state that touched Texas prior to proceeding to DAL. Also, it was not allowed to book a flight directly from MCI to DAL on their website - you used to plug in those city-pairs and you would get a note on the website saying something to the effect of "Because of the Wright Amendment you can not book travel directly from MCI to DAL, you must pick flight from MCI-TUL/OKC/ABQ/LIT before proceeding to DAL."

Now, with the changes to the Wright Amendment a couple years ago I can book a non-stop MCI-DAL flight. AMR and DFW airport commission bought and paid for Jim Wright.

 

[wheelsup]

Weren't the carriers forced to move from DAL to DFW though? DAL is more convenient but the airport authority forced them out. SWA refused or filed a lawsuit or something and so they were subject to restrictions. Only fair. SWA weasels their way into things.

 

[little_cricket]

Weren't the carriers forced to move from DAL to DFW though? DAL is more convenient but the airport authority forced them out. SWA refused or filed a lawsuit or something and so they were subject to restrictions. Only fair. SWA weasels their way into things.

And why should Southwest move? They didn't agree to move to DFW. They wanted and fought to stay at KDAL. Why is that weaselly?

 

[greaper007]

And why should Southwest move? They didn't agree to move to DFW. They wanted and fought to stay at KDAL. Why is that weaselly?

Exactly, business travelers liked how close Love Field was to the city. And with all the other traffic out at DFW delays were non-existent. We non-reved out of Love in the 80s on a monthly basis, the crappy thing was the we always got stuck in OKC or TUL. Not exactly the funnest airports in the world.

 

[pullup]

It was really frustrating. Any flight to and from DAL had to stop in a state that touched Texas prior to proceeding to DAL. Also, it was not allowed to book a flight directly from MCI to DAL on their website - you used to plug in those city-pairs and you would get a note on the website saying something to the effect of "Because of the Wright Amendment you can not book travel directly from MCI to DAL, you must pick flight from MCI-TUL/OKC/ABQ/LIT before proceeding to DAL."

So could they do a touch and go or did it actually have to be a completed leg?

Weren't the carriers forced to move from DAL to DFW though? DAL is more convenient but the airport authority forced them out. SWA refused or filed a lawsuit or something and so they were subject to restrictions. Only fair. SWA weasels their way into things.

I think the negotiate like champs, instead of abhoring them for their practices it may pay to look at the method to their success.

 

[wheelsup]

And why should Southwest move? They didn't agree to move to DFW. They wanted and fought to stay at KDAL. Why is that weaselly?

I'm not saying they should move; I'm saying the other carriers were forced to move which opened up DAL for SWA. DAL is the preferred airport because it was so close to the city. The carriers being forced to move happened before SWA even started operations IIRC and basically put DAL on a gold plate for SWA.

It would be like if the New York Port Authority said everyone in LGA has to move to JFK. Then a year later a new airline starts up and serves the "underserved" LGA. Of course they will be successful because the government handed them one of the most crowded airports on a golden platter.

Capitalism is great when everyone has a level playing field.

 

[jynxyjoe]

I'm not saying they should move; I'm saying the other carriers were forced to move which opened up DAL for SWA. DAL is the preferred airport because it was so close to the city. The carriers being forced to move happened before SWA even started operations IIRC and basically put DAL on a gold plate for SWA.

It would be like if the New York Port Authority said everyone in LGA has to move to JFK. Then a year later a new airline starts up and serves the "underserved" LGA. Of course they will be successful because the government handed them one of the most crowded airports on a golden platter.

Capitalism is great when everyone has a level playing field.

Thank you wheels for taking the time to explain that one.

 

[TripSix]

I'm not saying they should move; I'm saying the other carriers were forced to move which opened up DAL for SWA. DAL is the preferred airport because it was so close to the city. The carriers being forced to move happened before SWA even started operations IIRC and basically put DAL on a gold plate for SWA.

It would be like if the New York Port Authority said everyone in LGA has to move to JFK. Then a year later a new airline starts up and serves the "underserved" LGA. Of course they will be successful because the government handed them one of the most crowded airports on a golden platter.

Capitalism is great when everyone has a level playing field.

It would be more like planning to plow under LGA and JFK, and forcing all carriers to move to the new airport ABC, in the middle. LGA is plowed under, and a new carrier starts up and plonks itself at JFK-and then refuses to move. As a result, a NY congressman pens a law to basically hamstring the new and drive him out of business and stop anyone else from thinking setting up shop there is a good idea. One airline did go out of business, one started up and folded-but that one company kept with it-and survived.

I completely see you point, and though the demand/traffic in Dallas during the 70's is nowhere NEAR what it is today-Southwest took a risk, a big one, and it worked.

 

[atpwannabe]

Well I don't think anyone expected this at all... those 717's are going to look goofy as heck in the SWA livery!

I know!!!! Still trying to get use to seeing short buses with the Delta livery.:laff:



atp