Southwest buys Airtran

[MikeD]

You remember the mid 90's, right? How were the PFT schemes set up then? You went to FSI or some other school and paid for your own training. The school passed you as long as your "check cleared", and you went to initial for your airline who was waiting in the wings, in some cases, to get you. In other cases, you went to training to hope to get on with an airline.

How is this different than what Power Aviation or whatever the company is you get your 73 type in? You are paying a training company for the opportunity to get hired by a company, whether they get a kickback or not.[/quote]

Difference was, you had a specific training program detailed to get you a job, so long as you passed the program, and you had minimal hours. All those programs you speak of......definitely PFJ, etc.

With getting a 737 type, there's no "bridge" to a job. You still have to qualify, still have to interview, still have to pass the prereq's etc.

One is buying a job. The other is paying for one prerequisite......no different than insuring you have an ATP or meet the other mins for the job that everyone else has to. And there's no guarantee or bridge to getting hired.

And I really am going to bed now!!

No you're not. You cant resist arguing here!

 

[pullup]

• Independently, Southwest has decided to launch international service (and now will have AirTran to lead the way.)

Huh, interesting.

 

[granlistillo]

So for SWA/Airtran I guess the golden ticket in the USN is the P-3C replacement (MMA?) or a T-43 exchange tour. For them it is PaidFT PaidFJ. I gotta get my kid a soccer slot at the USNA, hope he doesn't get boats or helos.

 

[MikeD]

So for SWA/Airtran I guess the golden ticket in the USN is the P-3C replacement (MMA?) or a T-43 exchange tour. For them it is PaidFT PaidFJ. I gotta get my kid a soccer slot at the USNA, hope he doesn't get boats or helos.

When the T-43s were still manned by USAF pilots, it was a great tour to take at Randolph/Mather in order to get out of the rush lifestyle of the MAF forces, as well as get a free B737 type and be able to set up great for that SWA interview. Around late 1999, the AETC leadership determined....from the 19th AF/CC....that the T-43s shouldnt be using USAF Pilots, as those are pilots who should be flying operational missions in the real world, not working in training. And it was determined that T-43s would go contract crews.

When the contract crew thing happened. The same 19AF guy and many of his staff members retired and went right over. Funny that.

 

[Stone Cold]

Difference was, you had a specific training program detailed to get you a job, so long as you passed the program, and you had minimal hours. All those programs you speak of......definitely PFJ, etc.

With getting a 737 type, there's no "bridge" to a job. You still have to qualify, still have to interview, still have to pass the prereq's etc.

One is buying a job. The other is paying for one prerequisite......no different than insuring you have an ATP or meet the other mins for the job that everyone else has to. And there's no guarantee or bridge to getting hired.

There were people back then that paid for training without job opportunities. Now, since the unions have stepped in, how many people go out and buy Metro types, or the like (okay, old example, but you know what I mean...) and get hired by...does any "regional" even use Metros anymore? Shut up, Ameriflight guys...irate:

Oh yeah, good example was the freaking "RJ" courses that happened for a while. Required by some airlines to get hired (see Kellwolf's posts a couple of years ago) vs. an airline paying for the course (I believe AE paid to put some people through the course to get them hired, please correct me if I am wrong).

So, if I had an airline, and required people to have a beautician's license, and there just so happened to be a "discount" beautician school in my town, it would be okay with you? It is the same thing. Name one other airline that requires any aviation education equivalent to a type rating...please do not say a degree, because that can be in anything, not a specific type of airplane you fly.

No you're not. You cant resist arguing here!

Busted.:beer:

 

[cmill]

So egotistical morons now have to introduce themselves to floatplane pilots as WN captains now?

HAH!

We actually talked about that at work today.

 

[MikeD]

There were people back then that paid for training without job opportunities. Now, since the unions have stepped in, how many people go out and buy Metro types, or the like (okay, old example, but you know what I mean...) and get hired by...does any "regional" even use Metros anymore? Shut up, Ameriflight guys...irate:

Oh yeah, good example was the freaking "RJ" courses that happened for a while. Required by some airlines to get hired (see Kellwolf's posts a couple of years ago) vs. an airline paying for the course (I believe AE paid to put some people through the course to get them hired, please correct me if I am wrong).

So, if I had an airline, and required people to have a beautician's license, and there just so happened to be a "discount" beautician school in my town, it would be okay with you? It is the same thing. Name one other airline that requires any aviation education equivalent to a type rating...please do not say a degree, because that can be in anything, not a specific type of airplane you fly.


Busted.:beer:

Very good points all, and my question would now be is SWA getting something out of these discount or any of these type rating schools? Kickback, partial ownership, something? If so, I could completely see what you're saying. Not to say that these places didn't just spring up because of the 737 type requirement....they very well could have, but I'm just not sure on that.

The RJ course, I'm in full agreement.

The only other aviation equivilent of training I can think of would be (talking majors here) when some airlines only required an FE written. Would the ones that required a full FE certificate be considered PFT? That's the only real example I can think off the top of my head.


You know I really have no legit argument, I'm just trying to keep you awake

 

[ChasenSFO]

Holy crap, did not see that coming! Keeping the 717s AND launching international service on top of what FL already does, wow. I'm actually surprised.

Now I wonder if Southwest is going to want CRJ-200s flying out of MKE as "Skywest operated in codeshare with Southwest operated by AirTran"?

 

[MikeD]

I'm wondering if messing with the good thing they had going is going to be good for SWA.

I think back to America West. Although a different example in terms of timing and the expansion they did just around the Gulf War time, their desire to expand in a far out fashion (acquire 747s, and begin Honolulu and Tokyo routings) led them to bankruptcy. The timing issue was oil prices during and just after the Desert Storm.

Though a different situation I know, I hope SWA doesn't deviate from their roots too much and end up screwing themselves.

 

[granlistillo]

When the contract crew thing happened. The same 19AF guy and many of his staff members retired and went right over. Funny that.

Showing my age on the T-43 thang. Typically military pull up the ladder decision made at higher echelon. Related to the stars and staff theater visits schedule for the last day of the month (or two or three for credibility he he) to the first of the month for the full two months taxfree combat pay cha-ching.

StoneCold,
I think your arguments are reasonable, I do think perspective differ on the 91/135/121 world. I was just saying SWA does not equal Gulfstream or some of the smaller 121 operators who TD guys moonlight in certain TRTOs down Florida way. If not apples and oranges oranges and mandarines?:beer:
Now I am off to bed, early show...

 

[Stone Cold]

Very good points all, and my question would now be is SWA getting something out of these discount or any of these type rating schools? Kickback, partial ownership, something? If so, I could completely see what you're saying. Not to say that these places didn't just spring up because of the 737 type requirement....they very well could have, but I'm just not sure on that.

The RJ course, I'm in full agreement.

The only other aviation equivilent of training I can think of would be (talking majors here) when some airlines only required an FE written. Would the ones that required a full FE certificate be considered PFT? That's the only real example I can think off the top of my head.

I think you could say yes, that was PFT if they required the full FE cert. However, now you and I are both dating ourselves, relatively speaking.:beer:

You know I really have no legit argument, I'm just trying to keep you awake

You're a jerk!! I hate you and please delete my account immediately!!:rotfl::bandit::beer:

No, really, I do not think it is some mass conspiracy on SW part. I do not thing they have stock in the training companies, and insurance companies like NetJets (Berkshire Hathaway and Warren Buffett) do. I think they have had the requirement from the beginning, and they never changed. When did SWA start? When did PFT start? What did the SWAPA say about the requirements, and why did they keep them? Why am I still up?

Seriously, I will catch up with this in the AM when it is 12 pages long and you are asleep!! Please forgive any spelling or grammar errors since it is now almost 0200 and I've had many beers.:beer:

Just one last thing...I am a SWA fan, being from an AMR family, but do despise their "PFT". Good night!

 

[MikeD]

I think you could say yes, that was PFT if they required the full FE cert. However, now you and I are both dating ourselves, relatively speaking.:beer:

Very much so.......having started getting paid to fly in the early 1990s, and starting at the panel at a 121 major was considered fairly standard.

You're a jerk!! I hate you and please delete my account immediately!!:rotfl::bandit::beer:

Oh man......the number of those exact PMs we get here, you'd be surprised!

No, really, I do not think it is some mass conspiracy on SW part. I do not thing they have stock in the training companies, and insurance companies like NetJets (Berkshire Hathaway and Warren Buffett) do. I think they have had the requirement from the beginning, and they never changed. When did SWA start? When did PFT start? What did the SWAPA say about the requirements, and why did they keep them? Why am I still up?

Seriously, I will catch up with this in the AM when it is 12 pages long and you are asleep!! Please forgive any spelling or grammar errors since it is now almost 0200 and I've had many beers.:beer:

Because you love it here!

 

[mwflyer]

I love it! I know that everyone is in LOVE with SWA, but I never got it how they got a pass on the PFT on this. I don't care what you say about it...it's PFT. You are required to have it for the job, and I think it's bogus. Don't try changing my mind either...ain't happening!

Not sure what I think of this...I have loved the flights from San Antonio to ATL...quick and cheap (I know, more hatred there) and haven't flown on SWA too much since they usually aren't the cheaper airline. Time will tell, I suppose.

You're spot on! Its funny how everyone defends SWA on this, because their pay is tops right now. Forgetting that before 9/11 SWA was nowhere near the top in pay, yet still required the type. The same people that defend SWA will kick and scream about regionals requiring an RJ course! Why? Because a regional pays less than 25k to start, so its a travesty. SWA you can top out at 200K so it ok. PFT!

Let SWA cut their pay by 50%, then lets see how many of these defenders still think its ok to pay for a type to work there.

 

[bike21]

You're spot on! Its funny how everyone defends SWA on this, because their pay is tops right now. Forgetting that before 9/11 SWA was nowhere near the top in pay, yet still required the type. The same people that defend SWA will kick and scream about regionals requiring an RJ course! Why? Because a regional pays less than 25k to start, so its a travesty. SWA you can top out at 200K so it ok. PFT!

Let SWA cut their pay by 50%, then lets see how many of these defenders still think its ok to pay for a type to work there.

We need a 'like' button around here

 

[bike21]

Holy crap, did not see that coming! Keeping the 717s AND launching international service on top of what FL already does, wow. I'm actually surprised.

Now I wonder if Southwest is going to want CRJ-200s flying out of MKE as "Skywest operated in codeshare with Southwest operated by AirTran"?

I don't see us lasting up there, just a gut feeling.

 

[granlistillo]

Not sure the "grin" smiley is appropriate for that; the pilots would go with the planes.

Very surprising news, nonetheless. I don't think anyone saw that coming.

hmmm, I think they would make an exception and get typed on the 73 for 121 initial. Pretty sure the unions would insist. Besides I think I read them may be keeping them.
Mooney guy besides having a nice taste in GA airplanes is one of the most polite fellers on JC, and wouldn't gloat in any pain.

 

[TripSix]

Hopefully, the deal will either be terminated, or done and marged successfully by 2014, so the Wright Amendment has no affect on this deal at this point in time. If, in 2014, the Amendment is repealed, then they can expand back into D/FW.

I thought all you airline guys/gals were edumicated on this stuff?!

I understand the amendment had no impact on this deal, as it will be signed and delivered long before 2014.

My point was, with the amendment expiring in 2014, the "Wright Zone" will no longer exist. That is a HUGE thing for SWA operationally, and there has been a lot of speculation on how they are going to have their foot planted firmly in the door come '14 when all of the current restrictions are gone.

AirTran is part of the answer, and I think there will be a few more steps sooner rather than later in the equation.

Just my $0.02

 

[pullup]

I'm wondering if messing with the good thing they had going is going to be good for SWA.

I think back to America West. Although a different example in terms of timing and the expansion they did just around the Gulf War time, their desire to expand in a far out fashion (acquire 747s, and begin Honolulu and Tokyo routings) led them to bankruptcy. The timing issue was oil prices during and just after the Desert Storm.

Though a different situation I know, I hope SWA doesn't deviate from their roots too much and end up screwing themselves.

Southwest usually has their head on a swivel when it comes to making business decisions, I'm sure they have looked at this from every angle. They probably figured they better make a move before there is no one left to merge with and one of the mega-airlines swallow them up.

 

[motormadness24]

Didn't airtran and SWA have a little marketing tiff going a little bit ago? Very interesting how things can change in an instant.

[YT]f6DdDlPT4Uc[/YT]

 

[WestIndian425]

I saw this on my phone on twitter and was blown away! No one saw this coming!

What's next? B6 goes after VX? (I'm just sayin'!)