Southwest buys Airtran

[SeanD]

The 717s could compete with Allegiant's market. Im glad to hear they are holding on to the 717s. I dig those airplanes.

 

[meyers9163]

There went business class....

Seems like Kelly doesnt know if those routes to CAK/DAY are even worth it. Basically said they will run operations to them and see if they can make a profit.... Then went on to say they plan on expanding ATL? Hmmm last I checked DAL already controls the ATL feed.... So where do you expand?

 

[granlistillo]

Not going to argue here. I think it's PFT and NO ONE is going to change my mind.

OK, without trying to argue or change minds, the argument agin' PFT is that in that "scheme" to use the UK term (generously), the employer makes money off pilot training ALA Gulfstream Academy, vice requiring ratings. Unless you are a EU style cadet or military trained you have to PFT. SWA type requirement and Gulfstream are different in that way?
edit oops looks like Bumblebee summed it up already. Lack of SA on my part.

 

[Speed Pilot]

I'm just really worried about the influence AirTran will have on SWA's company culture. The employees and management have a great relationship at WN. I see it on a daily basis where I work. Hopefully the AirTran employees will be able to roll right into their new workgroup with ease.

 

[Stone Cold]

OK, without trying to argue or change minds, the argument agin' PFT is that in that "scheme" to use the UK term (generously), the employer makes money off pilot training ALA Gulfstream Academy, vice requiring ratings. Unless you are a EU style cadet or military trained you have to PFT. SWA type requirement and Gulfstream are different in that way?
edit oops looks like Bumblebee summed it up already. Lack of SA on my part.

No, PFT is pay for training. Yes, everybody does it to get your ratings. Once you are in a jet, a company should pay for it. If you see ads for Lears, etc., it means they want qualified people. They want time in type for a decent operator, and the lower rung operators want you to pay for your type. Some will train you. Those are good operators, however they are hard to find in this market. This is how you get time in type and type ratings in, jets, without PFT.

SWA is PFT. It is the definition of PFT. Pay for your type to get a job.

 

[Stone Cold]

There is a huge difference from taking a seat that is required for operations and selling time in that seat or requiring a type rating as a prerequisite. To compare the two (GulfStream and SWA) is misleading, inaccurate and maybe you don't have a thorough understanding of the difference of paying for a job, and paying for a rating. (I think you do, but have just decided to be unreasonably resolute on this distinction)

I know the difference. One is PFT and the other is PFJ.:beer:

Having said that, enough about the PFT/PFJ...it's been discussed ad nauseum. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out over the next couple of years.

 

[killbilly]

I'm just really worried about the influence AirTran will have on SWA's company culture. The employees and management have a great relationship at WN. I see it on a daily basis where I work. Hopefully the AirTran employees will be able to roll right into their new workgroup with ease.

As a regular customer of SWA and a former regular customer of AT (just by circumstance - I'd still fly them if they went anywhere I was going lately) I suspect this will be fine as far as the flight crews go. I've always been impressed by the approachability, friendliness and professionalism of the Airtran crews.

 

[pullup]

I'm just really worried about the influence AirTran will have on SWA's company culture. The employees and management have a great relationship at WN. I see it on a daily basis where I work. Hopefully the AirTran employees will be able to roll right into their new workgroup with ease.

From what I've witnessed it will be a struggle but hopefully good triumphs over evil. The crews have been good, but pitting one union against another and then against a new management structure seems like it will cause some heartburn.

 

[granlistillo]

I know the difference. One is PFT and the other is PFJ.:beer:

Having said that, enough about the PFT/PFJ...it's been discussed ad nauseum. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out over the next couple of years.

In philosophy terms, it is a HUGE difference in degree if not in kind.

SWA is not a lower rung operator (not sayin' you were sayin') by any stretch.

 

[Stone Cold]

In philosophy terms, it is a HUGE difference in degree if not in kind.

SWA is not a lower rung operator (not sayin' you were sayin') by any stretch.

The only difference between SWA and lower rung operators is they pay well compared to other airlines now. Look at their pay back prior to all the bankruptcies and see how their pay was. Whether they pay $1, or $1 Million, it IS the definition of PFT. You must pay, whether SWA benefits or not, for the training to get the job, or have prior experience. Now, if SWA said you must have 500 time in type, then there would be no discussion, but since they encourage, and actually insist on you having the type before training without T.I.T., it is PFT.

 

[Bumblebee]

The only difference between SWA and lower rung operators is they pay well compared to other airlines now. Look at their pay back prior to all the bankruptcies and see how their pay was. Whether they pay $1, or $1 Million, it IS the definition of PFT. You must pay, whether SWA benefits or not, for the training to get the job, or have prior experience. Now, if SWA said you must have 500 time in type, then there would be no discussion, but since they encourage, and actually insist on you having the type before training without T.I.T., it is PFT.

by definition you are correct sir:beer:

 

[darthpanda]

There went business class....

My thoughts exactly. I like AirTran dangit. Don't take away my cheap business class and my XM radio!

 

[derg]

Good luck guys. I wouldn't wish a merger or acquisition on my worst enemy. Even when they "work" and they're relatively low drama, they're a massive pain in the butt.

I pretty much go to work and expect a memo that amends the previous memo about a procedural change for an item that was changed previously but then the memo isn't procedural, it's more or less guidance but well, "technically" we're trying to do this, but well, it's written this other way.

Aye yi yi.

 

[granlistillo]

You must pay, whether SWA benefits or not, for the training to get the job, or have prior experience.

I really don't understand their program. They have to still do an initial though? I mean if you had a lear type you could fly part 91 if you were current. SWA still has to do the 121 training?? I don't know if the FAA cuts them a break on their syllabus since they all are typed??
Seems apples and oranges to me. But I must say: I dunno.

 

[meyers9163]

Some items out of the Southwest-AirTran deal
1:38 PM Mon, Sep 27, 2010 | Permalink
Terry Maxon/Reporter Bio | E-mail | News tips

I've been busy since early morning on the Southwest Airlines deal to buy AirTran Airways. Let me lay out some factoids and minutiae on the proposal and what it means for consumers, maybe answer some of the questions that came up.

In no particular order, here are items that came up in the press release, 7:30 a.m. analyst call or 9 a.m. press conference:

• Southwest does not plan to charge for bags, have first-class seating and have assigned seating. AirTran offers all of the above.

• Southwest will drop AirTran service to Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport after it acquires AirTran. The 2006 changes to the Wright amendment do not allow Southwest to operate at D/FW Airport.

• Southwest plans to keep operating the international flights that AirTran offers, at least initially. AirTran currently serves Nassau, the Bahamas ; Montego Bay, Jamaica; Punta Cana, the Dominican Republic ; San Juan, Puerto Rico ; and Cancun, Mexico.

• Independently, Southwest has decided to launch international service (and now will have AirTran to lead the way.)

• Southwest has decided to replace its ancient SAAS reservations system from Sabre with a new system. At present, the carrier is looking at two potential vendors. AirTran uses technology from Navitaire.

• Southwest plans to keep AirTran's fleet of 86 Boeing 717s. The Boeing 717, originally known as the McDonnell Douglas MD-95, had its name changed after Boeing bought McDonnell Douglas.

• With the Boeing 717, Southwest pilots will be either 717 pilots or 737 pilots, not both. The 717 is a completely different aircraft, based on the original Douglas DC-9 and requires different training and procedures.

• Southwest expects to keep 117 seats in the Boeing 717s, the same number that AirTran uses. However, it'll be a one-class cabin rather than first class and economy as AirTran operates it.

• Southwest wants to keep all the destinations that AirTran now serves, D/FW Airport excepted. AirTran currently flies to 37 destinations that Southwest doesn't reach. That includes smaller destinations like Dayton and Akron, Ohio , and Key West, Fla. Southwest chairman and CEO Gary Kelly says Southwest will operate them and see if they are profitable.

• The target date to close the deal is nine months, but Kelly hopes to get it done sooner. The parties must get governmental approval, primarily Hart-Scott-Rodino review of antitrust issues by the U.S. Department of Justice. Kelly noted that United Airlines and Continental Airlines are on target to close their merger in five months.

• Kelly said Southwest and AirTran have very little overlap on their route system They have only 19 routes that they both serve with nonstop service.

• Southwest and AirTran would like to have their two companies integrated -from the customer standpoint and with a single Federal Aviation Administration operating certificate - within 24 months.

• Southwest likely will continue to operate AirTran's biggest base, Atlanta Hartsfield, as AirTran does today. Southwest has no specific plans for Atlanta, but "we would like to grow."

• Kelly doesn't see AirTran as a hub-and-spoke airline primarily, but as a hybrid with some point to point and some connections.

• Corporate headquarters will be in Dallas, where Southwest is headquartered. There are no plans to have dual headquarters in Dallas and Orlando, where AirTran is based.

• The acquisition does not change Southwest's desire to buy Boeing 737-800s, an idea that it is contemplating and expects to make a decision by December.

• By combining the reach of Southwest and AirTran, Kelly expects the deal to save consumers hundreds of millions of dollars in airfares.

 

[TripSix]

All DFW will be eliminated.... Due to some ruling in the day....

Yeah, just read that. But again, interesting development with that amendment expiring in 2014...

 

[Stone Cold]

irate:

I really don't understand their program. They have to still do an initial though? I mean if you had a lear type you could fly part 91 if you were current. SWA still has to do the 121 training?? I don't know if the FAA cuts them a break on their syllabus since they all are typed??
Seems apples and oranges to me. But I must say: I dunno.

It's time for bed, but remember, in the 91 world, it would be up to the insurance company to determine how much the owner/operator would be charged to operate the airplane. This is the deciding factor on who works for a company....how much is the company going to pay for insurance, and do we have to pay for training (recurrent in a bit vs. initial now). Also, the company can ask for a lower price, in general, if somebody has no experience in the airplane.

I do not know why SWA still has their PFT scheme. Most airlines have abandoned that approach, post mid 1990's, most with the help of the unions (Surreal, did you get wood?:beer. SWA has stuck to what they started with...you must start with a type, whether you have time in the airplane or not.

As for the 91/135 world, there are some "bad operators" and some decent ones. Just remember, it is definitely an employer's market right now. I cannot wait until this reverses, if ever. I have been watching the industry since the 1980's, and, other than the hick-up in '06-07'ish at the regional level, for the most part, it has been an employers' market.

I do not know, and I am not really worried about it. I, along with everybody on here, have no control over it. I was just responding to SWA and PFT.:beer:

 

[Stone Cold]

Yeah, just read that. But again, interesting development with that amendment expiring in 2014...

Hopefully, the deal will either be terminated, or done and marged successfully by 2014, so the Wright Amendment has no affect on this deal at this point in time. If, in 2014, the Amendment is repealed, then they can expand back into D/FW.

I thought all you airline guys/gals were edumicated on this stuff?!

 

[MikeD]

irate:
It's time for bed, but remember, in the 91 world, it would be up to the insurance company to determine how much the owner/operator would be charged to operate the airplane. This is the deciding factor on who works for a company....how much is the company going to pay for insurance, and do we have to pay for training (recurrent in a bit vs. initial now). Also, the company can ask for a lower price, in general, if somebody has no experience in the airplane.

I do not know why SWA still has their PFT scheme. Most airlines have abandoned that approach, post mid 1990's, most with the help of the unions (Surreal, did you get wood?:beer. SWA has stuck to what they started with...you must start with a type, whether you have time in the airplane or not.

As for the 91/135 world, there are some "bad operators" and some decent ones. Just remember, it is definitely an employer's market right now. I cannot wait until this reverses, if ever. I have been watching the industry since the 1980's, and, other than the hick-up in '06-07'ish at the regional level, for the most part, it has been an employers' market.

I do not know, and I am not really worried about it. I, along with everybody on here, have no control over it. I was just responding to SWA and PFT.:beer:

I don't necessarily see SWA as PFT, since to me, requiring a 737 type is no different than requiring an ATP....simply a prerequisite.

And it's not PFJ, because having the 737 type is no guarantee that you get the job. If you were automatically hired with a 737 type or were paying to get a type from them and it happened to come with a job, then that'd be different IMO. the type is simply a prerequisite in order to even vie for a spot on the team, no guarantees.

 

[Stone Cold]

I don't necessarily see SWA as PFT, since to me, requiring a 737 type is no different than requiring an ATP....simply a prerequisite.

And it's not PFJ, because having the 737 type is no guarantee that you get the job. If you were automatically hired with a 737 type or were paying to get a type from them and it happened to come with a job, then that'd be different IMO. the type is simply a prerequisite in order to even vie for a spot on the team, no guarantees.

You remember the mid 90's, right? How were the PFT schemes set up then? You went to FSI or some other school and paid for your own training. The school passed you as long as your "check cleared", and you went to initial for your airline who was waiting in the wings, in some cases, to get you. In other cases, you went to training to hope to get on with an airline.

How is this different than what Power Aviation or whatever the company is you get your 73 type in? You are paying a training company for the opportunity to get hired by a company, whether they get a kickback or not.

And I really am going to bed now!!