Logging Pilatus time

This is VERY SIMPLE guys: Don't try and over think this!

If he's the person with his hands physically on the flight controls and the other guy is not...then he can log PIC because he's rated for the aircraft category/class (single engine land) and he is the sole manipulator of the flight controls. So he can log PIC and TT if he so chooses.

Because he is a CFI/CFII, he can log it all as ACTING PIC (You can after all be PIC without touching a damn thing)...because he can legally instruct the other pilot. Their log books would have to reflect it as such, but that is perfectly legal as well.

That of course assumes that he has endorsements for High Performance, Complex and High Altitude Operations.

As stated, if you're going to LOG PIC TIME AS AN INSTRUCTOR, YOU HAD BETTER BE READY TO ANSWER QUESTIONS SHOULD THEY ARISE IN AN INTERVIEW. Whatever you put in your logbook you are responsible for, so if I ask you to describe the stick shaker/puller test on the PC-12, I expect the full answer in detail.
 
Thanks for all of the replies. After talking to someone who is "in the know," we decided that it would be best to log the time in a separate logbook. ie not actually "log" the time, but maintain a record of it. Bonus to whoever figures out why.
 
dc3flyer said:
Lets say I, being an ATP, have a type rating in an King Air 350. You want to get a type rating for KA350. I can give you instruction in an KA350 for the purpose of attaining your type rating.
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Nope, not at all.

If you have an ATP and are a captain at PanAm, you can instruct your new FO in the finer points of flying the 747 at that company. All this falls under the companies training program.

But that's it, ANY other type of instruction towards a certificate or rating must be done by a CFI.
 
lifter123 said:
Thanks for all of the replies. After talking to someone who is "in the know," we decided that it would be best to log the time in a separate logbook. ie not actually "log" the time, but maintain a record of it. Bonus to whoever figures out why.
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Insurance.

I have two logbooks because of this. This is also why I have a 85 hour difference between my "insurance" logbook and my "real" logbook.

;)
 
N519AT said:
Insurance.

I have two logbooks because of this. This is also why I have a 85 hour difference between my "insurance" logbook and my "real" logbook.

;)
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BINGO. Someday down the road when i have the hours, there is a good chance I will fly for this company. Now that I have it logged in another log book, the FAA could care less, but the insurance company will take it. So still a good deal!
 
N519AT said:
Insurance.

I have two logbooks because of this. This is also why I have a 85 hour difference between my "insurance" logbook and my "real" logbook.

;)
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I probably wouldn't do that or advertise if I did. Should something happen and the insurers lawyer get ahold of that all of the sudden you go from unlucky pilot to someone who is trying to hide something. An accountant certainly wouldn't have two sets of books. Remember, the jury won't be made up of pilots but of "civilians". Just because something like that makes perfect sense to us that doesn't mean it won't have a sinister appearance to a layman. But that's just my take on it. Beyond that, this thread is a bit embarrassing.
 
lifter123 said:
Thanks for all of the replies. After talking to someone who is "in the know," we decided that it would be best to log the time in a separate logbook. ie not actually "log" the time, but maintain a record of it. Bonus to whoever figures out why.
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I don't know it it was that was "in the know" but you should log it in your normal log book. The flight time counts. The FAA is "in the know". See what they have to say about flying without endorsements.

Just log the time. No need to screw yourself from getting perfectly legal flight time. As that letter shows, you may log PIC in the Pilatus so long as someone who can Act as PIC is the Acting PIC in the aircraft.



EDIT: As far as anyone asking about having to have a type to log sole manipulator Yes you need the proper type rating to log PIC. The letter above notes that. Reason it is good to know this is if you have a PIC type and you are acting as an SIC. Any time you have the controls you may log PIC even if you are the "acting SIC"
 
esa17 said:
I probably wouldn't do that or advertise if I did. Should something happen and the insurers lawyer get ahold of that all of the sudden you go from unlucky pilot to someone who is trying to hide something. An accountant certainly wouldn't have two sets of books. Remember, the jury won't be made up of pilots but of "civilians". Just because something like that makes perfect sense to us that doesn't mean it won't have a sinister appearance to a layman. But that's just my take on it. Beyond that, this thread is a bit embarrassing.
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I'm not too worried, since it was the insurance company that told me to. And yes, this thread is embarrassing, each person has a viewpoint. However, I think the FAA would have trouble justifying answers on some of their regs.
 
lifter123 said:
I'm not too worried, since it was the insurance company that told me to. And yes, this thread is embarrassing, each person has a viewpoint. However, I think the FAA would have trouble justifying answers on some of their regs.
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I'm glad you have the instructions from the insurance company in writing, they're obviously your friends.

Meanwhile the FAR/AIM is cheap bathroom reading.
 
lifter123 said:
BINGO. Someday down the road when i have the hours, there is a good chance I will fly for this company. Now that I have it logged in another log book, the FAA could care less, but the insurance company will take it. So still a good deal!
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Wow, if there's a way to confuse me with all this administrative stuff, you guys can do it.v:insane:

I need an education. Why two logbooks? Why/how can the two logbooks be different if you're not FAA identified as a PIC?

How/why should the insurance company differentiate like that?
 
Maurus said:
I don't know it it was that was "in the know" but you should log it in your normal log book. The flight time counts. The FAA is "in the know". See what they have to say about flying without endorsements.

Just log the time. No need to screw yourself from getting perfectly legal flight time. As that letter shows, you may log PIC in the Pilatus so long as someone who can Act as PIC is the Acting PIC in the aircraft.



EDIT: As far as anyone asking about having to have a type to log sole manipulator Yes you need the proper type rating to log PIC. The letter above notes that. Reason it is good to know this is if you have a PIC type and you are acting as an SIC. Any time you have the controls you may log PIC even if you are the "acting SIC"
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Great info. Thanks.
 
Question: Two pilots are flying a Citation X. Both are typed as PIC in the aircraft. Are both pilots able to log PIC on each leg? The pilot not flying is acting as PIC and the Pilot Flying is Sole manipulator.

If I understand this correctly the answer is Yes, both can log PIC.

Thanks.
 
You can put whatever you want in YOUR logbook, but when you're sitting for the job interview and the guys asks where your 5hours of Turbine came from and you lay down that story, it's look shady.
 
TwinCessnaDriver said:
Question: Two pilots are flying a Citation X. Both are typed as PIC in the aircraft. Are both pilots able to log PIC on each leg? The pilot not flying is acting as PIC and the Pilot Flying is Sole manipulator.

If I understand this correctly the answer is Yes, both can log PIC.

Thanks.
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Technically yes, but the person flying the leg in that type of situation is usually the acting pic and the pilots swap seats.


7700 said:
You can put whatever you want in YOUR logbook, but when you're sitting for the job interview and the guys asks where your 5hours of Turbine came from and you lay down that story, it's look shady.
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Actually the airlines know full well that you can log PIC as the sole manipulator. It is not shady at all, but the aircraft type that you flew will be fair game in an interview. If you know the aircraft, they wouldn't have a problem with how it was logged so long as it was legal (it is legal, see the link above.).
 
7700 said:
You can put whatever you want in YOUR logbook, but when you're sitting for the job interview and the guys asks where your 5hours of Turbine came from and you lay down that story, it's look shady.
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Yea, you have no clue what you're talking about.
 
lifter123 said:
Thanks for all of the replies. After talking to someone who is "in the know," we decided that it would be best to log the time in a separate logbook. ie not actually "log" the time, but maintain a record of it. Bonus to whoever figures out why.
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Thats foolish.
 
7700 said:
You can put whatever you want in YOUR logbook, but when you're sitting for the job interview and the guys asks where your 5hours of Turbine came from and you lay down that story, it's look shady.
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Not even close.

"Yeah, I got to ride along with a buddy who flew it for Acme charter outfit. I flew some of the empty legs, it was a great learning experiance."

If that is your answer in an interview, no one will even care. The FAA says you can log it, you are honest about what your role was on the flights in question, and you made it a learning experiance.
 
TwinCessnaDriver said:
Question: Two pilots are flying a Citation X. Both are typed as PIC in the aircraft. Are both pilots able to log PIC on each leg? The pilot not flying is acting as PIC and the Pilot Flying is Sole manipulator.

If I understand this correctly the answer is Yes, both can log PIC.

Thanks.
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This scenario is something a lot of guys in the corporate/charter world deal with often. As someone else stated, it is your logbook so do what you think is right.

Where I work, when two captain qualified pilots are flying together, dispatch will designate one as PIC and one as SIC for an entire trip. If I am the PIC, then I log every leg as PIC, cause in the end I am responsible for the flight. If I am listed as SIC, then I log the legs I actually fly as PIC, and the legs the other guy flies as SIC. We usually just alternate days flying on a trip when two PIC qualified pilots fly together.

Other people may log it differently, but I think I could justify that reasoning should anyone ever question my times.
 
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