Obama Proposing $50b Spending Bill - Runways, Roads

[Turbine]

Who cares if the orbiter is the safest thing yet, without the 4 components of the STS, its worthless. It is old, the thing was designed in the early 1970's. A vast majority of the computers on the thing are so old, the only stock of them left is at NASA. I'd argue that the safest programs in NASA history are Mercury/Gemini, with Apollo being second and the STS program as the least safe.

We don't need the capability of a 60 x 15 foot payload bay attached to a 7 seat capsule. We need the ability to put 5-7 people in LEO, or 3-5 into LEO for a rendezvous with a TLI/TMI stage, in order to get to the moon/mars. Part of the problem with NASA is they have had no real vision/mission for the longest time. President Bush set out to change that, with the Moon/Mars mission planning. There is no physical way we can get anything the size of the STS to the moon, so we needed a new system that works for that, not just LEO.

My point was not directed to you it is to the people saying that it was unsafe. The fact that the shuttle has old technology is why i would love to see a new, more economic,lighter shuttle with new technology.

Bending a piece of metal into a tube and flying hundreds of people across the ocean is also physically impossible..it would seem? But were doing it.

 

[Orange Anchor]

The TFOA* problem is simply embarrassing. The fact that they KEPT FLYING with the TFOA problem, on the other hand, is reprehensible. Ditto for the SRM O-ring blow-by. Management had far too much faith in the vehicle and unrealistically overestimated how safe it was both times.

* Things Falling Off Aircraft

The reviews after flight showed ALL shuttles returned with some damage to the tiles. Same with the blow-by on the O-rings. If you have not read Dianne Vaughn's book on Challenger, you might want to.

ALL organizations gather information to prove they are operating safely or at least within the margins. Vaughn and Dekker both argue that what happens is 'normalizing deviance' whereby real world conditions often do not match planned conditions such as (for example only) the temperature limits for launch are between -10 and +40C. What happens when it is -11C? Or -10.5C?

 

[Mark815]

So you want to spend more money, when we have no money to spend, other than that which is printed by China. Look I'd love to have a new system in place, but at some point we as a country have got to realize things have to be cut in order to save the country, even if what is being cut is something we like/benefit from.

I agree and disagree with this. I agree we need to cut things, but lets cut WASTEFUL spending first. I don't see going into space as something we should sacrifice, it helped make us who we are as a nation\superpower. I don't disagree with the shuttle program eventually being retired (it'd be great to have them continue flying), but I don't think we should retire them until we at least have something on the table to take its place. The 'having to cut something even if we like/benefit from' doesn't cut it IMO because where does it stop? There is SO much wasteful spending in Washington, yet we cut programs that are important to the country. Are we just going to stop funding schools because we need to save money, even though we may need it? We've been putting men into space for nearly 50yrs with our own rockets, why should we stop it now?

 

[jdlilfan]

The reviews after flight showed ALL shuttles returned with some damage to the tiles. Same with the blow-by on the O-rings. If you have not read Dianne Vaughn's book on Challenger, you might want to.

ALL organizations gather information to prove they are operating safely or at least within the margins. Vaughn and Dekker both argue that what happens is 'normalizing deviance' whereby real world conditions often do not match planned conditions such as (for example only) the temperature limits for launch are between -10 and +40C. What happens when it is -11C? Or -10.5C?

Yup, Read Riding Rockets by Mike Mullane. He talks about this and how the astronauts tried to whistle blow back in the 80's. Great book btw.

http://www.amazon.com/Riding-Rocket...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1284038010&sr=8-1

 

[Orange Anchor]

Yup, Read Riding Rockets by Mike Mullane. He talks about this and how the astronauts tried to whistle blow back in the 80's. Great book btw.

http://www.amazon.com/Riding-Rocket...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1284038010&sr=8-1/QUOTE]

It all has to do with culture and how that culture operates. Post event analysis is often very pristine due to hindsight bias. It eliminates all the fog that is present as the incident evolves. I like the quote that the paradox is the evolution is often opaque and afterwards it is so completely obvious. This follows a recent quote I saw that says nothing is so invisible as the obvious.

I recently read some studies on what it takes to develop a safety culture and it is attitude along with a number of factors including a resilient culture (one that can continue in spite of shocks and insults), a learning culture (one that keeps abreast of innovation), a reporting culture (where information flows freely), a just culture (where people are held responsible for actions and are treated fairly). This obviously takes a lot of effort and money and the willingness to continue to evolve. Most are very happy with 'we've done it this way for years and if it ain't broke, don't fix it' or in this case, 'change it." We are creatures of inertia.

 

[Turbine]

I agree and disagree with this. I agree we need to cut things, but lets cut WASTEFUL spending first. I don't see going into space as something we should sacrifice, it helped make us who we are as a nation\superpower. I don't disagree with the shuttle program eventually being retired (it'd be great to have them continue flying), but I don't think we should retire them until we at least have something on the table to take its place. The 'having to cut something even if we like/benefit from' doesn't cut it IMO because where does it stop? There is SO much wasteful spending in Washington, yet we cut programs that are important to the country. Are we just going to stop funding schools because we need to save money, even though we may need it? We've been putting men into space for nearly 50yrs with our own rockets, why should we stop it now?

Thank you, that is exactly my point. Good to know I'm not the only one thinking like this.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

The reviews after flight showed ALL shuttles returned with some damage to the tiles. Same with the blow-by on the O-rings. If you have not read Dianne Vaughn's book on Challenger, you might want to.

I read Truth, Lies, and O-Rings but that's the first I've heard of that one - can you PM me a citation? Always looking for more to add to the stack of reading. I'm familiar with the term normalizing deviance - it was cited in a few of the public administration (and engineering) papers I read about the accidents. Be nice to read the full book.

I recently read some studies on what it takes to develop a safety culture and it is attitude along with a number of factors including a resilient culture (one that can continue in spite of shocks and insults), a learning culture (one that keeps abreast of innovation), a reporting culture (where information flows freely), a just culture (where people are held responsible for actions and are treated fairly). This obviously takes a lot of effort and money and the willingness to continue to evolve. Most are very happy with 'we've done it this way for years and if it ain't broke, don't fix it' or in this case, 'change it." We are creatures of inertia.

Posit: NASA's safety culture got a lot better after Apollo 1, and the survival of the 13 incident is a result of that safety culture improvement. Then it got worse again, mostly due to the same problems as what caused Apollo 1 - complacency and "hurry up"-itis.

 

[Mark815]

Posit: NASA's safety culture got a lot better after Apollo 1, and the survival of the 13 incident is a result of that safety culture improvement. Then it got worse again, mostly due to the same problems as what caused Apollo 1 - complacency and "hurry up"-itis.

I want to say t's so hard to believe coming from an organization that straps people onto millions of pounds of rocket fuel and blasts them into space, but I totally agree that complacency and hurry up-itis is what causes these problems. The whole Columbia disaster could have been avoided if someone just checked the damn wing!


btw you're avatar had me LOL'ing

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

State your source for this one -- all the sources I saw when I recently looked in one of my MBA classes said that the top 1% in the United States controlled just under 50% of the overall wealth. That was of 2008, and had been pretty steady for at least the previous two decades.

Has there been a shift of 40% of the nation's wealth in the last two years?

Correct, here is the stats:

http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

The top 1% controls just under 50%. However, together the top 20% controls together around 93%.

This is also different than income. The underclass aren't as bad there, however income is taxed a great deal more than assets.

 

[jdlilfan]

I am not very thrilled about the use of more stimulus funds for construction projects because I know the money won't be put to very good use.

My base airport got several million the first round of stimulus funds to revamp our long runway. Sounds great although the runway didn't really need it, traffic has dropped off substantially in the past 4 years and the ANG F-16's that were based there went to the desert. The runway had five years of life expectancy left before it was slated for AIP funds. But it was sorta shovel ready and seemed like a good idea to the city and airport board.

The project was supposed to take 3 months. June through August. The contractor picked for the project was a local road paving company who had no experience with airports but the CEO was the chair of the municipal airport board. The project kicked off and crews were supposed to work around the clock. That never happened. Crews worked 9am to 2pm. Halfway through the project the paving company left for a while to do more lucrative road paving work in august. Then of course fall and winter came and construction was halted.

Due to the nature of the main runway crossing the other runways (effectively cutting their distance or closing them at periods while construction shifted around) and the fact that nearly all of the IAP's were to the runway under construction, traffic was really dead.

Construction resumed in the spring and a local electrical union was hired to do the runway lighting. The electricians had no airport experience as well. They ordered the wrong parts and at one point had the whole lighting system down for the whole airport! The airport was closed for nearly a week during nights!

To this day the project is still on-going. Lighting, a lighting utilities shack, paint, final grooving, and the shoulders of the runway still need done.

On top of that, the construction hurt our the airport and it's traffic substantially, especially during hard economic times. Traffic has never really regained, which was the big selling point justifying the revamp to begin with. They sold the city the idea that if there is a fresh runway, large planes would just swing on by and use it.

I am sure the airport will get more money this time around as well. They definitely have a "if we build it, they will come" mentality thinking it will be able to lure in some airline or cargo operator (airport has been vacant of that since 1998, great lakes airlines & Kalitta/Zantop).

I would rather see this money be put to use with ATC upgrades and possible infrastructure upgrades to airports that really need it. I also like the idea of high-speed rail but if it was affordable or plausible, wouldn't some company be already doing that? If Amtrak can't work then why would high-speed rail Amtrak work? and BTW, I have nothing against trains, I really wish Amtrak would be closer so I could use it to travel, especially up to Chicago.

I wish there would be more oversights and audits into where this money goes...

 

[dbrault17]

It's only going to get worse unless their money/wealth is forecibly taken from them. What's your solution?

Strong healthy unions. Thats kinda why we have a middle class today. Sadly, that is on the decline.

 

[pullup]

Strong healthy unions. Thats kinda why we have a middle class today. Sadly, that is on the decline.

Most of unions past were in manufacturing, which I would guess is part of the decline. What we need are more white collar jobs starting to get unionized then, I believe Boeing has white collar unions but it would be nice to see them spread out in the provate industry.

 

[greaper007]

Most of unions past were in manufacturing, which I would guess is part of the decline. What we need are more white collar jobs starting to get unionized then, I believe Boeing has white collar unions but it would be nice to see them spread out in the provate industry.

That's what I've always thought. At times I've gone as far to think that we're calling things white collar that aren't anywhere near white collar just to avoid things like unions...