Partial Panel

azaviator08 said:
Just wondering how everyone teaches compass turns.
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All timed. I have my students break it down. 2 minutes for 360, 1 min for 180, 30 seconds for 90 and 15 seconds for 45. At the very basic 3 degrees/second, or 10 degrees in 3 seconds.

If on a heading of 360 and asked to turn right to 120 that is a 90 degree turn and a 45 degree turn (or there abouts) so that's about 45 seconds of turn. Once that is done I have the students correct the error.

I know it sounds complicated but it really isn't and it's really easy if you have an adf to look at and get a idea of how many degrees away your heading is.
 
For compass turns - I know you UNOS by lattitude. But you also need to use your normal roll out lead. What do you use for this?
 
Most who discount reading the compass error (UNOS) have not given it enough practice and just decide that it either 1. is not reliable, or 2. just does not work and so they default to timed turns only. I personally think that UNOS is very accurate and use this as primary but still insure that my students know the timed turn method as well.
 
azaviator08 said:
For compass turns - I know you UNOS by lattitude. But you also need to use your normal roll out lead. What do you use for this?
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I don't. Doing timed turns compass errors are not really a consideration. It may not be very accurate but then neither are doing compass turns.
 
For a major heading change I use compass turns to get close. When you roll out of the compass turn, check the heading. Then make a timed turn to get right on-say you're 5 degrees off, that's roughly 2 seconds at standard rate. Seems to work alright for me.
 
start on the cardinal headings (N-S-E-W) from both directions to start to understand the concept. Then break it down to the 30 segments (30, 60, 90, etc.). Once this is mastered, then start to go to the very specific headings.

Simple to complex
 
I teach both Timed turns, and also turns with MC. from e/w to south. over shoot 10* for first 30, 20* for 60, and 30* for 90

Undershoot to north, 10* first 30, 20* for 60, and 30* for 90.
 
azaviator08 said:
For compass turns - I know you UNOS by lattitude. But you also need to use your normal roll out lead. What do you use for this?
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in a standard rate turn very lead lead out is needed. I just prefer to turn on the appropriate "correction" and use a timed turn to fix and error. 10* 3 seconds 5* still 3 seconds use half standard rate
 
azaviator08 said:
For compass turns - I know you UNOS by lattitude. But you also need to use your normal roll out lead. What do you use for this?
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I think I must be confused by the question.

The exact same normal roll out lead that you use full panel or, for that matter VFR. I'm pretty sure the airplane doesn't know that it's partial panel and a roll-out from a standard rate turn under partial pane takes the same amount of time as a roll-out from a standard rate turn at full panel.

Same rule of thumb we learned as private pilots rolling out from a medium bank turn about 1/2 half the bank angle.
 
Roger said:
For a major heading change I use compass turns to get close. When you roll out of the compass turn, check the heading. Then make a timed turn to get right on-say you're 5 degrees off, that's roughly 2 seconds at standard rate. Seems to work alright for me.
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That is what I do. Besides if I am in IMC and have partial panel I am declaring an emergency. At that point being 5 degrees off for a couple seconds wont hurt anyone.
 
poser765 said:
I don't. Doing timed turns compass errors are not really a consideration. It may not be very accurate but then neither are doing compass turns.
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In a real world event where you are executing an instrument approach, keeping up with the time while turning is an added task. I find using the approximate lead and lag works really fine without mentally keeping track of the seconds as I talk with ATC and/or make small corrective heading changes.
A combination of the skill of using time when appropriate and lead/lag when appropriate, and both as backup, is the intent of teaching and learning this basic skill.
 
nosehair said:
In a real world event where you are executing an instrument approach, keeping up with the time while turning is an added task. I find using the approximate lead and lag works really fine without mentally keeping track of the seconds as I talk with ATC and/or make small corrective heading changes.
A combination of the skill of using time when appropriate and lead/lag when appropriate, and both as backup, is the intent of teaching and learning this basic skill.
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To each their own. when shooting an approach there is usually a stop watch running anyway. To me PERSONALLY it seems easier to do timed turns than remember how compass errors work on the spot.
 
poser765 said:
when shooting an approach there is usually a stop watch running anyway.
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I can't tell you how many GA airplanes I have been in where the clock doesn't work.
Or the start/stop button sticks and the student becomes obsessed with starting the time while he is overshooting a turn.
 
nosehair said:
I can't tell you how many GA airplanes I have been in where the clock doesn't work.
Or the start/stop button sticks and the student becomes obsessed with starting the time while he is overshooting a turn.
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If the clock doesn't work you shouldn't be going IFR anyway...

Like I said, your way works for you, mine works for me.
 
poser765 said:
No, I can do it. I'll blame primacy though.
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That's a lot of blame. Unfortunately it's accurate. The emphasis seems to change periodically. When I did my instrument training, the focus was on compass turns and they were almost second nature. Timed turns were more difficult to me and I never really learned them until I needed to for my CFI-I, but which time the emphasis changed.

Both methods have their issues but they really should be given equal, um, time, when being taught.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
That's a lot of blame. Unfortunately it's accurate. The emphasis seems to change periodically. When I did my instrument training, the focus was on compass turns and they were almost second nature. Timed turns were more difficult to me and I never really learned them until I needed to for my CFI-I, but which time the emphasis changed.

Both methods have their issues but they really should be given equal, um, time, when being taught.
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Agreed
 
Because of the various errors, compass turns were all but irrelevant in Alaska. You've gotta use timed turns up there. Down here, its a wee bit different.
 
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