Explain Weather to Me From a Pilot's POV
- Thread starter RobertB
- Start date
Ultimatly its up to the pilot for example I fly freight in a 210 with no weather radar no gps just a 6 pack of steam guages and vor's because I dont fly passengers I will usually just go through the weather in most cases i'm only in it for 1-5 minutes at a time and I dont mind getting bounced around so sometimes they are just trying to give their passengers a good ride.
bike21
9-5 Ruins Lives
Just the other day I had a controller try to turns us right into a big overhang that was packed with mammatus clouds. No way Jose! I told my FO to kindly tell her, 'unable' and we went the other way.
As others have said, too many factors to tell. I doubt our controller could tell on the scope what she was turning us into. Similar thing happened today in MSP actually too.
Doesn't hurt to ask over the freq if you have time. Personally I pack on extra fuel during t-storm season and won't hesitate to take the long way around if it means a better ride for my pax.
As others have said, too many factors to tell. I doubt our controller could tell on the scope what she was turning us into. Similar thing happened today in MSP actually too.
Doesn't hurt to ask over the freq if you have time. Personally I pack on extra fuel during t-storm season and won't hesitate to take the long way around if it means a better ride for my pax.
ppragman
No pasa nada.
There's a huge difference between not being bold, and being a wuss.
bike21
9-5 Ruins Lives
Big difference in such a definition of a 'wuss' depending on your pax and type of flying.
ppragman
No pasa nada.
Completely and utterly. You don't drive through wicked turbulence with pax on board. No brainer. You don't do things that would make them uncomfortable, or make their flying experience less enjoyable. They're the customer. When the customer is a company that wants its boxes moved, the emphasis is on speed and reliability. Different game, different name.
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
I'd probably laugh, but then again, I don't deviate. :bandit:
(Just kidding, I'm a giant wuss.)
F9DXER
Well-Known Member
It is possible that the dispatcher for the MD wasn't comfortable and gave his/her recommendations. Remember ATC is not the only set of eyes watching a commercial flight
I highly recommend a tour of Delta's Operation Center if you can get it. I don't see why they would deny it after you explain your reasoning. Also, see if they will let you sit with a dispatcher for a couple of hours besides the 25 cent tour.
Alchemy
Well-Known Member
The CR9 crew probably never had a flight attendant or passenger get injured due to turbulence. Experience is the difference.
Once upon a time I was climbing out of a busy airport in IMC. I popped out between layers and saw a towering cumulus cloud with tops at about FL270. Our climb clearance was to FL260. I asked to continue the climb to FL280. Center wouldn't let me. I asked for 20 left. Center wouldn't let me. I asked for 20 right. Center wouldn't let me. And no, this wasn't painting on the radar, it was something that had to be seen to be avoided. I called the flight attendant to tell her to get in her jumpseat NOW. We hit the TC about half a minute later and got jarred into a 20 degree bank, experienced rapidly alternating positive and negative G's, and had the autopliot fail. She didn't make it back in time and tore her meniscus when the turbulence thrashed her into the galley cart. To her detriment she briefly argued with me when I told her to be seated: "but I'm in the middle of my service!".
We had to cancel the return flight because we didn't have a flight attendant that could walk. Even worse, she was out for months on OJI. My company had to pay contract maintenance to perform a severe turbulence inspection on the aircraft before it could fly again. I deviate around a lot of things now that I wouldn't have before. I give myself a lot of distance from the real nasty ones (20 NM or more). I probably annoy my flight attendants with how often I tell them to "stay in your seat until I give you the OK in the air". It's a personal goal of mine never to have that happen again. Next time, I won't let myself get boxed into a corner, I'll use emergency authority if need be to do what needs to be done to protect the people in back of the plane.
Towering Cumulus clouds are down right NASTY, and they don't necessarily have to be showing up on anyone's radar to be that way. So no, it doesn't really have anything to do with the airplanes themselves, it has to do with the pilots and their experience level. Freight guys: OK, boxes aren't going to bitch, but with passengers you have a plane load of liability that's just waiting for an excuse to SUE you and your company if you make a marginal decision. Maybe I'm a wuss but I'm afraid of getting fired for damaging an airplane, afraid of hurting people in the back, and am afraid of getting sued for everything I own for doing one of the above, however unintentional it might have been.
Once upon a time I was climbing out of a busy airport in IMC. I popped out between layers and saw a towering cumulus cloud with tops at about FL270. Our climb clearance was to FL260. I asked to continue the climb to FL280. Center wouldn't let me. I asked for 20 left. Center wouldn't let me. I asked for 20 right. Center wouldn't let me. And no, this wasn't painting on the radar, it was something that had to be seen to be avoided. I called the flight attendant to tell her to get in her jumpseat NOW. We hit the TC about half a minute later and got jarred into a 20 degree bank, experienced rapidly alternating positive and negative G's, and had the autopliot fail. She didn't make it back in time and tore her meniscus when the turbulence thrashed her into the galley cart. To her detriment she briefly argued with me when I told her to be seated: "but I'm in the middle of my service!".
We had to cancel the return flight because we didn't have a flight attendant that could walk. Even worse, she was out for months on OJI. My company had to pay contract maintenance to perform a severe turbulence inspection on the aircraft before it could fly again. I deviate around a lot of things now that I wouldn't have before. I give myself a lot of distance from the real nasty ones (20 NM or more). I probably annoy my flight attendants with how often I tell them to "stay in your seat until I give you the OK in the air". It's a personal goal of mine never to have that happen again. Next time, I won't let myself get boxed into a corner, I'll use emergency authority if need be to do what needs to be done to protect the people in back of the plane.
Towering Cumulus clouds are down right NASTY, and they don't necessarily have to be showing up on anyone's radar to be that way. So no, it doesn't really have anything to do with the airplanes themselves, it has to do with the pilots and their experience level. Freight guys: OK, boxes aren't going to bitch, but with passengers you have a plane load of liability that's just waiting for an excuse to SUE you and your company if you make a marginal decision. Maybe I'm a wuss but I'm afraid of getting fired for damaging an airplane, afraid of hurting people in the back, and am afraid of getting sued for everything I own for doing one of the above, however unintentional it might have been.
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
Agree 100%. I'd say a solid percentage of my weather decisions are made by considering liability. I know I could dial up the aggressiveness level and get the job done, but what happens if someone in the back gets hurt because of it? I don't want to find out. I'll never hear a word if I delay or cancel a flight because of weather; I will hear a heck of a lot if someone gets seriously injured or I bend metal.
Center doesn't drive your airplane. You do what you need to do to ensure the safety of your A/C and the people in it. Once center said unable you should have just said you are deviating. Towering cumulus is nasty, especially that high. I hear too many people on the radio asking for deviations and center says unable. If you really think you need to deviate, then deviate anyways.
As a controller, how often do you hear of pax flights following a cargo flight through a line?
In all honesty, it depends on how late they are...
Orange Anchor
New Member
In that circumstance, one can advise, 'I must deviate and you can clear me or I can declare an emergency and do it. Which do you want?"
Done it.
Alchemy
Well-Known Member
You're absolutely right, I learned that lesson the hard way. After they refused all my requests to deviate I comforted myself into thinking "maybe it won't be that bad" since it wasn't painting anything on the radar. I asked my FO what how he felt about it after the fact and he said "it didn't look like it was going to be that rough to me". I should've just done what I needed to do, traffic be damned, and let TCAS handle it if need be. Anyway, I think a pilot has to trust their gut on these things and when you let an external factor like ATC influence your decision, you are asking for trouble.
Orange Anchor
New Member
I am not suggesting traffic be damned by any means. But given the choice of vectoring 3-5 airplanes or refusing to clear an airplane requesting a deviation without emphasizing the nature of the request, the average person is going to say, "Unable". ATC is more than likely not going to appreciate the gravity of the situation without additional information. I understand that and that is why I offer a choice.
That is somewhat similar to the sim event of an emergency descent. Yes, everyone considers mountainous terrain but just bailing out of FL330 in the NE corridor without advising you need a clear descent path is just asking to dive into a thicket full of metal. Lots of machines between FL330 and 10,000ft. That it has NOT happened does not mean the threat does not exist.
boondr
Penalty Vectorer
Well said. If safety of flight is an issue do what you need to do but also consider there are other planes out there. Today for example I had a Bonanza request 15 right for wx, which in my view put him in the worst possible spot. I offered anything upto and including 180 left but not right(there were 5 jets at or descending through his alt in that area he wanted to go) but right although it had more painted then left was a shortcut. Remember if separation is an issue we HAVE to deny it initially because otherwise the error belongs to us. Do what you have to but remember there is more to it than us being lazy. The Bo stayed on course rather than go out of his way to the left with no problems.
*I think dasleben was on freq during this he can attest to the insanity that was my sector at the time.
Orange Anchor
New Member
My point exactly. And by clearly stating what is NEEDED, most often a solution can be found that works for everyone.
E_Dawg
Moderator
I just flew across half the US in a turboprop in the mid 20s. We were deviating around lots, while the jets above us were going right over. Not all of it was on our radar either, some of it wasn't producing precip but looked bumpy nontheless. Besides that our radar is pretty limited compared to what some of the jets have. It's just a smoother ride and especially when you have paying pax in the back that matters. But it's like a speed bump in a car. Some guys will practically stop while others will hardly even slow down for it. Just depends on who's driving 