ozziecat35
4 out of 5 great lakes prefer Michigan.
:yeahthat:
Thanks to this forum I chose to get a degree in Education versus the Utah Valley State Aviation nonsense. Sucks right now since I'm not flying, but in the end I'm not pigeon-holed...
Commercial Pilot Career is a sinking ship.
- Thread starter seaav8tor
- Start date
:yeahthat:
Thanks to this forum I chose to get a degree in Education versus the Utah Valley State Aviation nonsense. Sucks right now since I'm not flying, but in the end I'm not pigeon-holed...
You now have many options inside and outside aviation. I could also see, all other things being equal, you getting the nod for a pilot position over someone who has a degree in aviation.
Alaska45
Well-Known Member
A degree outside of aviation can be a good idea. However, are there any teaching jobs around your area with budgets being cut nationwide and hundreds if not thousands of teachers being laid off?
Some faculty members I have talked to that work in higher education say that they spend $60K for education, then work 10 years in low paying temp jobs to hopefully land a full-time position at $45k/year. Sounds a lot like a career in the regionals to me.
PhilosopherPilot
Well-Known Member
Surely it can't have anything to do with; Too many pilots, too many pilot factories and not enough people willing to turn down a (notso) shiny jet.
Severe
No, it has to do with the lack of high paying passengers, and too much capacity. If you want pilots to be highly paid, you must get the passengers to pay more. If you want them to pay more, you have to make the seats scarce, and charge more. This will result in fewer pilot jobs, but those people who make it to the career will make more money.
Essentially, it would be like the pre-regulation days. Few seats, high ticket costs, good pay.
Average Joes (like you and me) wouldn't be able to fly frequently though. It would be an "event." You know, something worth dressing up for.
NJA_Capt
Well-Known Member
I think you explained the problem with the industry in general. For the last few years, the regionals have been ramping up RJ numbers and the pilot mills have been cranking out starry eyed pilots. The PILOT problem is the number of eager newbies willing to jump on these low paying jobs. It is hard for previous pilots to leverage pay increases when so many people are still willing to work for less.
Supply and demand. If there were fewer pilots, the rates could increase. As long as the mills are cranking out pilots, the supply will not decrease.
PhilosopherPilot
Well-Known Member
Eh, maybe. This argument has always seemed fishy to me. It's the same as saying if more people would just hold out and not pay $5 for a draft beer, we could all get them for less. Of course, that IS true, but how likely is that?
The fact is that the marketplace determines the pay for pilots, just like it determines the cost of the tickets for the passengers. RJ pilots are already paid a great deal more than mainline, in terms of seat-mile cost. You can only make so much carrying around 50 pax. That's why there is such a push for larger aircraft at the regional level.
If you look at pilot pay on a "per passenger, per leg", quick math tells you it takes only a few bucks per passenger, per leg to significantly increase pilot pay. A waitress makes significanty more on a $ 100 guest check than a pilot makes on a $ 100 ticket. Of course the training to be a waitress is significant, not; and the responsibility is on par, not.
embraer07
Well-Known Member
The United States has the lowest pay for pilots and the HIGHEST requirements in the world.
I know for a fact-from first hand conversations with pilots from these countries- that anywhere in Europe, Brazil, Egypt, India, and China the minimums are 500TT period. No multi required beyond having your MEL. Yet starting pay in each country is the equivalent to an upper middle class lifestyle...which here in the U.S. is roughly $80,000/year more or less depending on what part of the country you live in.
Meanwhile, those of us here in the United States are required to have well over 1,000TT and over 100 to 200 hours of multi time just to have the privilege of earning $16 to $18,000/year, sleeping in the walk in closet of some crash pad that looks like a frat house, and never being home.
I really don't want to get into the pros/cons of high time requirements as there is something to be said for both sides of the argument...however, there is no excuse for pilots in this country to earn these salaries and have such low quality of life...ESPECIALLY if we are required to have such high times before even being called in for an interveiw.
In other words, Regionals are not an entry level job in this country but that is how we are treated. By the time we reach that level we have already paid our dues(and then some) as instructors, part 135 flying boxes on the back side of the clock, patrolling pipelines, etc..... Lets not bring up the hiring boom of 2006-2008 where few new hires at regionals had to do any of those jobs...that was an anomaly.
The only hope is that more and more people such as myself choose to leave this industry and refuse the low pay, low QOL. I was recently hired by a company which is 5 minutes from my house, pays me 3x more than what I would have made as a second year captain at a regional, and I get to be home everyday. Best part is that with my salary I can continue to fly GA on weekends and acutally ENJOY it. I had forgotten what it was like to have fun in an airplane.
Luckily my parents talked me into getting a non-aviation degree. Back in the day I was dead set on going the Utah Valley State online Aviation degree route. My parents stepped in and gave me a massive lecture, convincing me to actually attend a University and get a non-aviation degree... which I am eternally grateful for now.
In any case.... if only less pilots would be willing to "starve for their art" then maybe, just maybe we wouldn't be getting these fast food drive through wages.
We......... pilots, have NEVER made any significant attempt to control availability of pilot labor. The play books of the AMA and the ADA for the last 100 years are the gold standards of how to do it right. The various alphabet pilot associations are the perfect examples of how to do it wrong. Together they define two opposite ends of the spectrum.
C150J
Well-Known Member
Incredibly true, and it goes well beyond the AMA. We have been tremendously unsuccessful in establishing "gateways" into the professional cockpit. I'm not saying that lacking a 4-year degree makes you ANY less of a person, but it's ridiculous that a good percentage of municipal police departments require a Bachelors and regionals don't.
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
Part of the problem is the expectation that not only are we as pilots expendable, but further that the company is doing us a favor by allowing us the privilege of working there. A job is not a privilege it is a job. Just because its something of a non-standard career field doesn't make it a privilege to work there. There's absolutely no reason why an organization should consider the opportunity to fly "cool" equipment as a tool to keep wages low, work days long, and compliance complete.
However, this is not the fault of management (believe it or not). Its our fault. By accepting jobs with substandard quality of life and substandard operational procedures we perpetuate the fall of this career.
However, this is not the fault of management (believe it or not). Its our fault. By accepting jobs with substandard quality of life and substandard operational procedures we perpetuate the fall of this career.
Patrick
Well-Known Member
Dead on. Unfortunately, I just don't see "educating" the bulk of the pilot pool into not taking these jobs and adopting a different attitude that lines up with the fact that, whether or not we enjoy flying, appreciate flying good equipment, etc., this is still a JOB. As such, I think the only real answer is to limit the number or new entrants into the pool.
If there were doctor puppy mills, their profession would be in the toilet too.
There used to be doctor puppy mills, 100 years ago. The AMA has spent the last 100 years to raise the bar, limit doctor suppy, and create revenue streams to medicine. Their score in those areas: A+
We have dumbed down our profession; Often claim "so easy, anyone can do it", and stood by watching our product sold below cost. If the AMA or ADA looked at our play book they would just shake their head and grade us with a F-.
This in no way contradicts the current effort in medicine to copy tools we have developed to prevent mistakes, checklists, CRM, etc. While we put in the effort to lower the bar so Homer Simpson could fly as Captain, we did not protect the profession. The AMA protected the profession first, and now look at us for best practices to prevent mistakes. We just got it backwards.
averettpilot
Well-Known Member
Look, it's really quite simple....hold out from the airlines. You don't like it, don't work there...for any of them. Every time I get on here and read about how poor this industry is it's all talk, talk, talk. This industry is what you make it. I saw where it was all going with the big hiring boom in 06-08. 250 TT with a AMEL Comm???? Stupid.
The airlines is not the be all, end all in this industry as most people who get into it seem to believe. I for one will never work for the airlines unless it changes. Why would I want to subject my self to weeks of intense study and sim evals (all while potentially not getting paid for training) just to make 18-25K and low QOL. If you ask me it's stupid to lay down for that....even if you do love flying. Like people say, a job is a job.
The airlines is not the be all, end all in this industry as most people who get into it seem to believe. I for one will never work for the airlines unless it changes. Why would I want to subject my self to weeks of intense study and sim evals (all while potentially not getting paid for training) just to make 18-25K and low QOL. If you ask me it's stupid to lay down for that....even if you do love flying. Like people say, a job is a job.
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
Oldest shell game in the book. Nigerian spammers look sophisticated next to Airline Management, various aviation "consultants", etc. In the final analysis, the comparison between physicians and pilots fails not because our job is easier (although I think it probably is), but because we're way, way more gullible.
embraer07
Well-Known Member
Working for a major wireless technology firm that engineers and provides all the components for companies such as Verizon, AT&T, and all the major players overseas. I work with the major overseas clients in Europe and Brazil due to my language skills, providing support for their wireless networks. This field is expanding fast, especially in Brazil where their economy is rocketing. 4G is the next big thing and will help this industry expand even further. I have no prior experience in anything technology related, apart from aviation if you can count that...
Ex-Pilot certainly did look good on my resume, as did a 4 year degree in something completely unrelated to flying. Having two career fields you are qualified for will always give you an edge I have found.
As for lifestyle, well....having spending money is great; but what I REALLY love is finally being able to pay ALL my bills on time. As a pilot that NEVER happened; I simply did not make enough to cover my student loans(from flight training and college) plus all other "typical" bills such as rent, gas, insurance, etc...
Now I have enough left over to enjoy a comfortable lifestyle and continue flying for fun. That is the best part. I haven't had this much fun flying in a very long time. I have discovered that there is a clear difference between flying, and flying as a career. If you can unite the two and live well...that is ideal. However, in today's reality it is very difficult if not impossible for many.
So I am happy that I can continue to fly regularly, still enjoy everthing that is great about flying, yet not have to depend on flying for a paycheck.