Is Vegas really that busy!

M

mshunter

Well-Known Member
So, being from So-Cal, I tend to make my way out to Vegas quite frequently. I have been in to VGT/HND more than 3 dozen times, and LAs more than a dozen. Some days/nights the controllers are fairly accommodating. When I say fairly accommodating, I mean they don't seem too bothered (emphasis on too). Some days they won't even acknowledge my, tell me unable, and get quite rude. When I listen to whats going on on the frequency, they don't seem all that busy. So-Cal is busier with chatter than Vegas.

My question is, why does it seem like Vegas just can't keep up with the work load that seems to be less than what it is in So-Cal? Are they dealing with sub-standard equipment (green screens) or is there a perpetual hang over from living near The Strip?
 
They could be working multiple frequencies in Vegas... often times that is the case when one particular frequency does not sound all that busy.
 
We've visited them 2 or 3 times during NJC. They've always treated the group really well. From what I recall they have huge airspace issues due to the mountains and all the restricted areas to the north. I instructed out of VGT for two months for ATP and other than having to work from midnight to 5 in the morning all the time they always were really helpful.
 
You also have the possibility of a higher traffic to controller ratio even though it's less traffic. SOCAL probably has an assistant for most of their controllers because of the sheer volume, while LAS may not.

Just a WAG.
 
RPJ said:
LAS is fine but Nellis is borderline horrible.
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Depends who you get. Of the 3 approach control agencies in that area, they're all fairly similar, with LSV having some new controllers in training depending on the time.
 
Here's the real question; is "Is Vegas really that busy" an exclamatory statement or a question?
 
SteveC said:
Here's the real question; is "Is Vegas really that busy" an exclamatory statement or a question?
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The title was exclamatory. The question was in the post. It stems from frustration.

It seems everytime I go in there, they are rude and un-accomidating. I can remember one time I went in there and made the mistake of not requesting FF on my way out of VGT. I tried to get it in the air after departing, and was passed from controler to controler 5 times within less than 5 minutes because no one could figure out who to hand me off to. I finally came back with telling the last controller "You know what, forget it, this is the 5th handoff and no one seems to be able to figure out who 's sector I'm in!" I promptly turned off the radio. I had to stay 500'agl and basically canyon fly with a student to stay clear of bravo. I have never had a good experince with them. I understand they are in a valley, hemmed in by mountains and restricted air space, etc. But So-Cal is also very busy, hemed in by mountains and has many underlying airports in both the LAX and SAN areas, and the communication between controlers there is steller. It just seems like it can't be so busy that the right hand never knows what the left hand is doing. If they are over worked, somone needs to come up with a better plan of action to smooth things out there. It's not like there is a ton of airports there in that valley. There is only four. Ranting, maybe. I just hate dealing with controlers who always have an attitude. It's not like I have been flying in there in a 152. It may not be a 737, but a Chieftain can do 160 kts without batting an eye. I have been told comming into VNY to keep the speed up as long as possible because I was being chased by a Lear/Gulfstream/whatever, and had no problems. It just seems like they are not used to dealing with, or refuse to deal with anything that isn't 121.


I'm not asking for them to stop the flow of every thing behind me so I can get in, but find a way to work me in, I can comply with instructions. A perfect example was the other day, I was trying to get into SAN, and they were busy. I asked for an approach because it was IMC at the field. "No problem, here is your clearance, expect a hold, there is a few in front of you," and presto, I landed a few minutes later after flying 2 laps in a hold. When I have been on FF since departing Van Nuys, and I get terminated 30 miles out because "the hand off can not be effected" it just seems to be lazy. They have room for improvement.
 
mshunter said:
When I have been on FF since departing Van Nuys, and I get terminated 30 miles out because "the hand off can not be effected" it just seems to be lazy. They have room for improvement.
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What you said here kind of irks me as a controller. When you're VFR looking for flight following or even on flight following already, you are the last thing on my list and I'll get to you if I can otherwise I'll cancel you. Also there are limitations to radar, maybe they cannot see you anymore or your too low to the ground and freqs don 't work to well(I know this one well), and maybe even your demeanor to the controller is poor and they don't want to deal with you. I don't know what it's like in Las Vegas in regards to traffic flow, airspace, etc but it seems to me that you need to have some patience and not compare everything to SOCAL Approach.
 
LAS is poorly operated. When they closed 25L 2 years ago the airport actually operated more efficiently. If the LGA controllers all moved to LAS, they would make that place look like a ghost town with no change in the amount of traffic.
 
rherrick said:
What you said here kind of irks me as a controller. When you're VFR looking for flight following or even on flight following already, you are the last thing on my list and I'll get to you if I can otherwise I'll cancel you. Also there are limitations to radar, maybe they cannot see you anymore or your too low to the ground and freqs don 't work to well(I know this one well), and maybe even your demeanor to the controller is poor and they don't want to deal with you. I don't know what it's like in Las Vegas in regards to traffic flow, airspace, etc but it seems to me that you need to have some patience and not compare everything to SOCAL Approach.
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Irk you it might, but all the approach facalities I have dealt with, from the west coast (all the way up, not just CA) all the way out to Alabama (it's been a while, I don't remember the name of the facility), have been very accomidating and helpfull. But when I can't get into an airport because the controler refuses to deal with me (I fly a Chieftian, not a cessna, and I also fly at altitude, as per company SOP), and there is hardly any chatter on the freq., and they are rude, it's going to leave a bad taste in any ones mouth. Don't treat me like an inconvenience, treat me like a human being. If your to busy, let me know, and give me a possible time to call you back. Don't just shrug me off. Remember, without pilots, there would be no controllers. Think of what happened during the controller strike in the '80's. Airplanes were still flying. Don't take that as a slam on controllers, it's not. But we HAVE to co-exist. And for the record, all I was asking for was to be cleared into bravo so I didn't have to fly 500'agl to get to HND. I wasn't asking for vectors through final at LAS. All I wanted was a safe and comfortable ride for the people in the back. Do a search of these forums, and see how many people have had a bad experience with Vegas App.
 
mshunter said:
And for the record, all I was asking for was to be cleared into bravo so I didn't have to fly 500'agl to get to HND. I wasn't asking for vectors through final at LAS.
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In that case, LAS was doing you a favor........as your first sentence is the fun part! :)
 
Don't know much about LAS but I can try and put in perspective. (Or the L30(the TRACON) people could be a bunch of dicks and this is all hot air)

When giving flight following "handoffs" are fairly easy until the next guy down the line doesn't take it, so it is in fact not necessarily the controller you're talking to that is too busy to provide FF but the next one down the line even though the current one is terminating you. Adeditionally Class Bravo clearances can be tricky because often time the controller on the outskirts of the Bravo who would issue the clearance is the one who will be least affected by it. So he/she may be looking at what the next controller has or has coming up (say a departure bank) and decide authorizing you to run through their airspace at such and such altitude might in itself be a dick move for their coworker, regardless whether it ingratiates them with the pilot or not.

My personal policy has always been to allow it(Class B clearance) to best extent I can and if I really don't think it will work, just tell the pilot honestly why I can't, 99.9999% I get an understanding albeit disappointed reply.

Like I said it may be a L30 controller thing, a LAS airspace thing, or just bad timing. I would suggest asking the seemingly unbusy controller a nice but probing question on why. Something like "Is there a better VFR route I could fly in the future that would increase my chances of getting a Bravo clearance?" is benign enough while still getting 'why the hell can't I get a Bravo clearance?' question out.
 
I am a controller at Las Vegas TRACON and I will try and answer some of your questions. First of all, yes we really are that busy! When flying to VGT you will be routed one of two ways. The first and most common is outside the Class B staying to the west of LAS. The second and less common routing is east of I15, directly over HND airport then overfly the LAS RY 25 numbers and then on to VGT. The reason why we can't give you the second routing most of the time is because it is a narrow corridor that is mainly used to climb southbound LAS/VGT IFR departures and ALL HND arrivals/departures. It is basically a one in one out corridor because of terrain and high MVA's. Also, in Class B airspace we are required to separate you from the IFR's so keeping you outside the bravo is more often than not our only option. If we are landing RY 25 or 19 at LAS there is a better chance of you getting the HND routing. If we are landing on RY 1 or 7 you will not get the routing and chances are you will not get any service either due to the high workload. You are right about us not being VFR friendly. We can only use about 30% of our allotted airspace and airliners have priority. You may not like it but that's just the way it is. Due to terrain there really isn't any other way to get you to your destination any faster. My suggestion to you and any other pilot that is not comfortable flying in mountainous and turbulent conditions with high density altitude is DON'T!! If you have any questions please feel free to ask.
 
L30 ATC said:
I am a controller at Las Vegas TRACON and I will try and answer some of your questions. First of all, yes we really are that busy! When flying to VGT you will be routed one of two ways. The first and most common is outside the Class B staying to the west of LAS. The second and less common routing is east of I15, directly over HND airport then overfly the LAS RY 25 numbers and then on to VGT. The reason why we can't give you the second routing most of the time is because it is a narrow corridor that is mainly used to climb southbound LAS/VGT IFR departures and ALL HND arrivals/departures. It is basically a one in one out corridor because of terrain and high MVA's. Also, in Class B airspace we are required to separate you from the IFR's so keeping you outside the bravo is more often than not our only option. If we are landing RY 25 or 19 at LAS there is a better chance of you getting the HND routing. If we are landing on RY 1 or 7 you will not get the routing and chances are you will not get any service either due to the high workload. You are right about us not being VFR friendly. We can only use about 30% of our allotted airspace and airliners have priority. You may not like it but that's just the way it is. Due to terrain there really isn't any other way to get you to your destination any faster. My suggestion to you and any other pilot that is not comfortable flying in mountainous and turbulent conditions with high density altitude is DON'T!! If you have any questions please feel free to ask.
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Welcome aboard!! great to see another current controller on the board! :D
 
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