Flap retraction on the runway

[SpiraMirabilis]

I've flown a few Mooneys (M20F, M20J) and it always helped a great deal. I agree that just reaching over and grabbing and pulling on handles is asking for trouble (although most of the Mooneys I flew had johnson bars for gear, so kind of hard to do that by accident) but it is no more diverting your situational awareness than being ready to add power in the event of a rejected take off or in a turboprop to bring the prop lever back to disc/beta/reverse. You're all reaching for something in both of those examples... I've never accidently got the wrong lever and feathered the prop or shut the fuel off yet, because even while I maintain directional control on the runway I look at each lever as I touch it.

When someone is having trouble just maintaining their directional control on the runway by itself, then it is probably not a good idea to introduce anything else. This is probably why you taught your students this way.

I also taught almost all of my students not to do anything until they cleared the runway because the level of experience they had meant that if things got more complicated than necessary they weren't going to learn as well. It's about knowing your audience, I guess. But you shouldn't be trapped in that mindset that just because you taught that way to primary, and instrument students or students who were new to the aircraft that that is the only proper way to do it.

This is also the way I was taught to fly the only transport aircraft I've flown (Don't touch anything, even change the frequency until off the runway), the might Dash-8 (I tried but couldn't manage to popularize "The Ocho" as a nickname.) Even a tiny little 36,000lbs aircraft like that it isn't really an issue like it is on small singles, and the standardization of doing everything the same way every time does add a layer of safety and predictability.

And yeah, sure... I don't really drink beer, but I'll somehow manage to force one down That is if I can get off... my birthday is around the same time.

 

[TXaviator]

C172 N-model POH states under sec. 4 of short field technique -

"for maximum brake effectiveness, retract the flaps, hold the control wheel full back, and apply maximum brake pressure without sliding the tires"

so there ya go. in some cases it is prescribed by the manufacturer.

 

[dustoff17]

C172 N-model POH states under sec. 4 of short field technique -

"for maximum brake effectiveness, retract the flaps, hold the control wheel full back, and apply maximum brake pressure without sliding the tires"

so there ya go. in some cases it is prescribed by the manufacturer.

Keep in mind that Cessna single engine POHs (not the Corvalis) were written long ago when the link between the flap handle and the flap was mechanical. I move the handle and the flap moves instantly and at the same variable degree. So on the runway if I retracted the flap, the weight of the plane essentially "dropped" on the wheels.

When they went with an electrical flap it eliminated that effect. The new flaps retract so slowly you don't get the same "weight" effect. Cessna didn't want to re-write the POH on that procedure because they didn't want to cause "confusion". Pilots moving from an older plane would have a different procedure than one in a newer plane and visa versa.

For me, don't touch it until you're off the runway. My PPL FAA examiner emphasized the same thing years ago. No distractions on the runway!

 

[minitour]

We actually ADD flaps (down) when we get weight on the wheels.

Flare, land, de-rotate, brakes, flaps to ground (lowers flaps from 35 to 60 and extends speed brakes).

Once we're clear of the runway, I'll call for the after landing checklist which has the PM pulling the flaps up (head down). When I fly single pilot, I do the same, but I do it while stopped after clearing the runway. I don't want to grab the wrong handle.

Some of our guys insist on grabbing handles, turning off ignitors, pitot heat and lights on the runway while rolling out.

I'm not a fan of that method.

-mini

 

[Cptnchia]

What is the typical take off flap setting for the 75/76, or does it depend on weight and other circumstances?

I once heard flaps 5-10-15.

We use 5 or 15. It is usually dependant on runway length and obstacle clearance. Place like JFK, lots of runway, it's 5. LGA is always 15.

Here's an interesting tidbit. At flaps 1 on the 767, the flaps actually don't move, but the slats extend halfway out.

 

[dasleben]

I may not be a big-city jet pilot, but I don't touch anything until I'm clear. I could easily get away with snagging handles on the runway, but why? I'd much rather keep my eyes up and avoid ending up in the grass because I'm not paying attention to basic aircraft control. This comes into play much more when operating on contaminated runways. Just fly the plane and worry about everything else later.

 

[TallFlyer]

I was actually taught to put them up upon landing when I learned at Mustang Air. I dont know if you have ever met our Chief CFI at UAA, but Mr. Stoddard will chew, and cuss you out if you do that.

Well Mr Stoddard needs to join the real world and figure out that there's more to bush flying than Big Lake or Skwentna on a nice day.

And do you really think with the aircraft slowing down, brakes on, that if you still have flaps in your going flying again? Really??

In a Cherokee, in some of the weather those knuckleheads barge around in up here, I wouldn't doubt it for a second.

Had it happen to me in the Cherokee, the 207 and, crazily enough, the 1900C.

:yeahthat: Except I don't fly a 207 or a 1900, but I've seen it happen.

Well if you weigh 29,000lbs it isnt going to happen.

In part 121, you dont touch anything after landing until clear of the runway, except maybe the gust lock.

I'd be real curious to see PenAir's SOP on taking the Saab into Dutch or Cold Bay or some other windy place.

 

[Guy]

I'll bet the manufacturer of your airplane has a suggestion in the POH.

:yeahthat:

When all else fails, read the checklist.

 

[jonnydwolf]

I feel like opening up another can of worms... what about when doing touch-n-goes? One argument is going to be that one should be with their flight instructor when doing touch-n-goes because it is an unnecessary risk to practice this way, the other will be that touch-n-goes are great practice to do solo. My argument is that it only takes one flip of a switch to make a mistake and ultimately it is the PIC choice (most retracts have redundancy built in to prevent inadvertent on ground gear ups -- but assume that doesn't work to be safe).

With that said, the plane must be reconfigured on the runway before adding power again (assuming a touch-n-go), all before running out of useful runway. So after I have both mains down and assured center line when rolling out on a short field landing or touch-n-go I deliberately call out, "Not touching the gear, flaps up". I am aware of my actions and do not touch the LG lever and focus on maintaining center line and getting the plane off the runway safely and parked or whatever I am going to do next (full-stop taxi back, etc.).

Therefore, I always strive be ahead of the plane and assess the risk of an action versus the benefit (Short field ops, big placard on panel "Raise flaps to increase brake effectiveness", etc.). My argument above is weak in that I say "it only takes one flip of a switch to make a mistake". So to partially contradict myself (whatever that means), be very careful when moving levers and switches on a roll-out (or any phase of flight) because flying is demanding and mistakes will happen if you're not safe.

irate:

 

[bksslc]

I was flying an arrow for my commercial checkride and the DE had me do a touch and go (soft field landing to soft field takeoff) without letting the nosewheel touch the ground. That was a handfull keeping the wheel up, staying on centerline, and adjusting from flaps 40 to flaps 25. It was fun to do though.

 

[minitour]

I feel like opening up another can of worms... what about when doing touch-n-goes? One argument is going to be that one should be with their flight instructor when doing touch-n-goes because it is an unnecessary risk to practice this way, the other will be that touch-n-goes are great practice to do solo. My argument is that it only takes one flip of a switch to make a mistake and ultimately it is the PIC choice (most retracts have redundancy built in to prevent inadvertent on ground gear ups -- but assume that doesn't work to be safe).

As long as we haven't selected ground flaps, we can go-around.

With that said, the plane must be reconfigured on the runway before adding power again (assuming a touch-n-go), all before running out of useful runway.

Why?

Max power and start flying again. Then start getting rid of the drag.

...unless your aircraft has a different procedure. I'm sure some do.

-mini

 

[jonnydwolf]

As long as we haven't selected ground flaps, we can go-around.


Why?

Max power and start flying again. Then start getting rid of the drag.

...unless your aircraft has a different procedure. I'm sure some do.

-mini

Your point is one to ponder. I will preface I am still a private pilot and definitely on the learning curve. So everything I spout I am regurgitating from all the reading and things my flight instructor has taught me.

I guess it depends on density altitude, how long and high to be able to clear an obstacle and what the POH says of course.


If I have too short a runway and obstacles I am probably not doing touch-n-goes for practice.

But a necessary go-around hopefully I have made the decision long before touching down and during at least short final that things are not-so-good. I am flying a flying a BE24 (Beech Sierra) which in a full flaps situation on a high density altitude day will not climb so good. So what works for me is adjust pitch, full-power, get flaps to a proper setting which will provide some lift (the higher the density altitude, the less effective flaps are in providing lift in non-turbo charged single engine props), gear up.

On a practice touch-n-go I will adjust the flaps and pretty much at the same time set full power for take off. Full flaps in my plane is a drag.

 

[jspeed87]

As long as we haven't selected ground flaps, we can go-around.


Why?

Max power and start flying again. Then start getting rid of the drag.

...unless your aircraft has a different procedure. I'm sure some do.

-mini

Exactly that's what my instructor told me and what I will pass on to my students one day. Go around = Power up, pitch up, clean up.

 

[granlistillo]

I hate to comment on such a vague question, with so many variables. But I haven't seen this pointed out: Depending on the flaps setting for landing there is a point that by raising the flaps you will reducing induced drag and form drag at the same time and not affecting the vertical component of lift. So you will be increasing your rollout and doing nothing for controllability if not decreasing it. Depending on the flap design and how they are retracted, what may possible make a good technique in one airplane is certainly a bad technique in another. If I had any doubts, I would just use the normal procedure and not rely on one instructor's pet technique.

As far as larger airplanes I would not try that habit in a sim eval, and expect to receive accolades.

Also, I think it is arguably almost an adage not to retract flaps on roll-out due to the distraction factor as a general rule.

In the end it depends on the aircraft, the enviroment and what you are trying to do. Best advice is to following the POH techniques.

 

[ChasenSFO]

I used to always retract my flaps, switch off the landing light and strobes as soon as I was exiting the runway. I personally know people who failed PPL checkrides for that. The argument is that you obviously are looking out the window as you do it, and in an RG you can accidentally pull the gear up. What I normally do now is clear the hold short line, stop, do what I need with the flaps and lights, and then call ground. But hey, to each his own.

As far as putting the flaps up as soon as the wheels hit the ground, I see an issue there. Touch down, flaps up, oh noez a piper is crossing without clearance, better go around! Oh wait, the flaps just went up and we dumped all this lift, we can't get up in time! I know, obviously that isn't a common situation and most people will never see it, but I've personally seen just that happen but the landing pilot jammed the throttle and got it into ground effect right away and cleared by a few feet(I thought they hit at first). If he had raised the flaps, I probably would have witnessed someone getting seriously injured or killed.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

For me, it depends on the plane and the runway. If I'm working on short field stuff, I may do it. In a plane like the Diamond DA-20, I feel the braking action is significantly better with the flaps up rather than down, and as such, on a short field, I'm pulling the flaps up as soon as I'm on the ground.

 

[Baronman]

My $.02.

As an instructor I would advise against this practice of raising the flaps upon landing. It seems like an unnecessary configuration adding to workload at a high workload moment with little benefit.

I believe it would assist in shortening landing distance, but really how much are we talking? If you need this tenchinque in order to not run off the pavement/grass, I'd suggest the margin for a safe landing is unacceptably small. Additionally the vast majority of your landings will be on Runways/strips over 2,500' where max braking is rarely needed in a light piston single.

 

[Mike H]

I'll bet the manufacturer of your airplane has a suggestion in the POH.

What, that old thing? Does anybody even read the POH anymore?

naw, you don't want to develop bad habits. What if one day you reach for that gear handle instead of the flaps in a multi? .

Honestly, I've never thought this was a sensible argument. The flap lever and the gear handle are shaped entirely differently (one's shaped like a wheel and the other is shaped like a flap) and I've never seen an installation where they were physically anywhere close to each other.

If you can't instantly tell by feel which handle you've got your hand on, you probably shouldn't be at the controls of anything, let alone an airplane.

 

[Niuflyer22]

C172 N-model POH states under sec. 4 of short field technique -

"for maximum brake effectiveness, retract the flaps, hold the control wheel full back, and apply maximum brake pressure without sliding the tires"

so there ya go. in some cases it is prescribed by the manufacturer.

Cessna recommends this technique for both the 182RG and the 172SP too

 

[granlistillo]

Cessna recommends this technique for both the 182RG and the 172SP too

Just wanted to point out the OP seemed to indicate that every landing, it was "hammered into him" to retract flaps before putting brakes on. The original conversation was not about SF ldngs.