killbilly
Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
No, he was referring to USAF.
It didn't occur to me that different branches would equip the airplanes differently. Makes sense, though.
Top Gun question
- Thread starter futurepilot1
- Start date
No, he was referring to USAF.
It didn't occur to me that different branches would equip the airplanes differently. Makes sense, though.
The AF has always had dual-controls in most of its two-seat fighters, with some exceptions. Navy/USMC hasn't. USAF Nav's/WSOs/EWOs in fighters get stick time and have a chance to recover the aircraft in the event something happens to the pilot (has happened a number of times). USN aircraft and the NFOs in them, do not have the ability.
killbilly
Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
Interesting. Why is this?
Difference in culture regards the guy in back.
The only AF tactical two-seat aircraft I can think of off the top of my head that didn't have dual controls, are the EF-111A Raven due to the ECM package installation on the EWOs side of the cockpit. Funny, since the F-111 fighter/bomber had full dual controls, but for the EF-111, they removed the stick and rudder pedals, but left the throttles in place. The other aircraft without dual controls were the F-89 Scorpion, the F-94 Starfire, and the F-101B Voodoo.
On the culture thing, the Navy has seemingly been of the thought that the NFO is one who does everything but fly, as thats the aviator's job. And as such, have designed their aircraft to be able to only do that. The USAF has liked the idea of dual redundancy, not only for safety, but for convenience. Many WSOs in aircraft like the F-4 and EWOs in F-105s were fully proficient in air-air refueling, could likely land the aircraft in the event of an emergency (with exceptions), and could simply just take the stick to give the pilot time to relax. I say "with exceptions" because I remember in the USAF F-4, the rear seat had only emergency gear extension, and no ability to drop the tailhook for an arrested landing on a runway. I also don't think there were flap controls back there either, but can't remember specifically.
Other aircraft, like the F-4G Weasel and F-105G Weasel planes, had instrument panels in the rear cockpit that went to the top of the canopy, so even with dual controls, they were considered a single-pilot aircraft due to the non-existant forward visibility. In fact, to legally shoot a practice instrument approach where the rear seat Nav could play safety pilot in the normal F-4s and F-105s; in the G models of each of these, there had to be a wingman chase as safety pilot.
Toria
Well-Known Member
Ask Calcapt (soon to be known as UACapt), he tried to take me on a tour of Miramar to impress me........... he knows a bit about this subject.........
skidz
Well-Known Member
On E-2 are RO, CICO, ECO....that would be something like Radar Officer, Combat Information Center Officer and Electronic Counter measures Officer.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
Yes, that's what I meant.......you're probably old enough to have seen one fly too
At an airshow, yes. '78 IIRC. Sweet jet.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
Awesome, would have loved to see one fly. Sexier than a Tomcat IMHO
When I was in NROTC, we had an ADM come and speak at my unit who had done his nugget tour in Viggies over Vietnam. Took some serious brass ones to do what they did.....talk about sticking your hand into an angry bees nest. Luckily they were fast as ****......though I don't think unarmed single ship road recce has been too kind on any aircraft historically speaking
bunk22
Well-Known Member
I'm probably going to offend some folks but this is typical. By this I mean I've met a few WSO/RIO types who talk as if they fly the aircraft. Not all, but some certainly make it seem as if they were pilots. Hell, recently on another forum (Corvette forum), someone pointed out to me as to why all the photo's this British military pilot posted were from the back seat. For the last few years, I thought he was a pilot has he often said he flew this, he flew that. Yeah, he was flight officer, not a pilot. I pointed it out to others very clearly and the Brit is rather offended with me. He had a giant ego anyway. Go figure, a military aviator with an ego...who knew :dunno:
Bandit_Driver
Gold Member
Probably with his hand not far fromthe ejection handle.
Mike you da man with info...Thanks
If I am not mistaken a wild weasel crew got an air to air kill in IRAQ after being engaged by a MiG and just out flying the guy and the MiG ended up flying into the ground. The F-15's were late to party..
Was the first kill of the war in '91. Was an EF-111A Raven that got tapped by an Iraqi Mirage F.1. The EF went commenced maneuvering and went for the deck, with the Mirage following. Mirage flew into the ground trying to zig and zag with the EF.
Now, the rest of the story......
USAF didn't officially credit this kill initially even though they knew about the kill and the circumstances behind it. The widely accepted reason is that it's because this was the first air-air kill by the USAF since Vietnam (Navy had the two Gulf of Sidra incidents, as well as the USAF RF-4C to their credit, til now), and the USAF DID NOT want the first air-air kill since Vietnam going to freaking lowly EF-111. They wanted it going to an F-15 or F-16......someone with air-air as their primary mission in life.
So, F-15s are credited with the first USAF kills since Vietnam, and after the war, the EF-111 was quietly given its credit, with explanations of how it was done without weaponry being used (inferring that the F-15s that got the kills the next day, did so "properly".)
So typical.....
Pic: EF-111A Raven electronic jammer.
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Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
I'd say the EF-111 crew proved to be more awesome than the Fighter jocks that day.
His flying was so bad-ass he didn't even need weapons.
That's Chuck Norris style, right there.
"When this EF-111 pilot gets into a dogfight, the other guy just shoots himself down to save time by not denying the inevitable."
:rawk:
His flying was so bad-ass he didn't even need weapons.
That's Chuck Norris style, right there.
"When this EF-111 pilot gets into a dogfight, the other guy just shoots himself down to save time by not denying the inevitable."
:rawk:
Definitely.
Unfortunately, most all EF-111s that didn't make it to a museum, ended their careers here in Tucson, AZ, resembling this Desert Storm veteran:
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CaptBill
Well-Known Member
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
I'm probably going to offend some folks but this is typical. By this I mean I've met a few WSO/RIO types who talk as if they fly the aircraft. Not all, but some certainly make it seem as if they were pilots. Hell, recently on another forum (Corvette forum), someone pointed out to me as to why all the photo's this British military pilot posted were from the back seat. For the last few years, I thought he was a pilot has he often said he flew this, he flew that. Yeah, he was flight officer, not a pilot. I pointed it out to others very clearly and the Brit is rather offended with me. He had a giant ego anyway. Go figure, a military aviator with an ego...who knew :dunno:
Both of those phenomena -- back-seaters speaking as if they were pilots, and then being offended when called out as such -- unfortunately afflict more than just a few people. It's actually an enormous chip that many seem to carry around, and as soon as someone calls them out on it, we're the arsehole for saying something about it. :dunno:
I can usually tell when someone says that they "fly fighters", they are probably a 'pitter.
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
Another forgotten hero. *shudder* I love old airplanes, but I'm not really much for boneyards. I apply a certain degree of animism to airplanes, and seeing them in that condition creeps me out.
It's like driving by a thoroughbred farm and see horses missing legs, or tails, or ears and eyes, etc...
drunkenbeagle
Gang Member
I worked at an oil company for a while, all of the old timers were missing arms, legs and fingers...
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
That just ain't right. The human cost of oil consumption. Gross.