tjvpa28
Well-Known Member
"Flight Instructor" is an airman certificate to which you can add additional ratings (single engine, multi engine, instrument, etc) just like a pilot certificate.
CFI practical not counting as a BFR
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"Flight Instructor" is an airman certificate to which you can add additional ratings (single engine, multi engine, instrument, etc) just like a pilot certificate.
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
In addition to what tjvpa28 said, it's not the "rating" issue; its the "certificate" issue.
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A person who has, within the period specified in paragraph (c) of this section, passed a pilot proficiency check conducted by an examiner, an approved pilot check airman, or a U.S. Armed Force, for a pilot certificate, rating, or operating privilege need not accomplish the flight review required by this section.
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Show us even one time that the FAA refers to an "instructor" certificate as a "pilot" certificate. I don't think you'll find it. OTOH, they are two completely different pieces of plastic, FAR 61.1 talks about issuing "pilot, flight instructor, and ground instructor certificates and ratings," medical certificates aren't required for exercising instructor certificate privileges, to teach (stuff that counts) in an aircraft you need both a pilot certificate and an instructor certificate. There ar probably more examples.
There are some sound reasons why a CFI ride perhaps should count as a replacement for a FR, but you're barking up the wrong tree with that one – the separation of pilot certificates and instructor certificates is well-established in the FAR.
tjvpa28
Well-Known Member
Guy
Well-Known Member
Would you list some of the "loopholes" the FAA has not had the foresight to address?
tjvpa28
Well-Known Member
All the maneuvers in the CFI PTS say "Demonstrates and simultaneously explains.....from an instructional standpoint." Pretty sure you have to touch the controls
R
Roger, Roger
Guest
This has been discussed over and over again. The regs and the FAA interpretations on the matter are crystal clear.
R
Roger, Roger
Guest
I haven't read the whole thread, but someone might have mentioned this previously-You CAN ask the fed or DPE who does your ride to sign you for a flight review after successfully completing it.
TwilightFan91
New Member
But you're not required to. If the DPE wants you to demonstrate a maneuver, you must do it to commercial standards. But there is no requirement that you have to do any maneuvers at all. It's very possible that the DPE just wants to fly the airplane and have the applicant critique. I have a friend of mine who said on his CFI checkride, he didn't do the take off nor did he do the landing. He did some stalls and lazy-8's and stuff like that (which were done to commercial standards), but no landing. Do you think it's right that he be granted a BFR if he never even did a landing? The only reason a pilot checkride gets counted as a BFR is because the applicant is always doing the flying and the things being examined are the exact same things that are examined during a BFR. Maybe not the exact same things, but close oto it.All the maneuvers in the CFI PTS say "Demonstrates and simultaneously explains.....from an instructional standpoint." Pretty sure you have to touch the controls
Think of it this way, the FAA allowing a checkride counting as a BFR is the exception to the rule, as opposed to the FAA not allowing CFI checkrides to count.
Mike H
Well-Known Member
Care to quote (or even point out) exactly where in the PTS is says that?
poser765
Well-Known Member
I'll do you one better. Taken from the PTS, important part bolded.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits instructional knowledge of the elements of turns around a point by
describing—
a. how to select a suitable altitude.
b. how to select a suitable ground reference point with consideration
given to emergency landing areas.
c. orientation, division of attention, and planning.
d. configuration and airspeed prior to entry.
e. entry procedure.
f. wind drift correction.
g. how to maintain desired altitude, airspeed, and distance from
reference point.
h. coordination of flight controls.
2. Exhibits instructional knowledge of common errors related to turns around
a point by describing—
a. faulty entry procedure.
b. poor planning, orientation, or division of attention.
c. uncoordinated flight control application.
d. improper correction for wind drift.
e. failure to maintain selected altitude or airspeed.
f. selection of a ground reference point where there is no suitable
emergency landing area within gliding distance.
3. Demonstrates and simultaneously explains turns around a point from an
instructional standpoint.
4. Analyzes and corrects simulated common errors related to turns around a
point.
That pretty much says it all as TJ said. Not really sure where there is room to assume you don't have to demonstrate...
TwilightFan91
New Member
The way I read that is they want you to demonstrate that you can teach turns around a point, not that you have to demonstrate the maneuver itself. Turns around a point take a long time to complete (as do a lot of other maneuvers). Theres no way you're going to get through demonstrating not only your instructional knowledge of each maneuver, but also your ability to execute each maneuvers and have the flight done in any less than about 4 hours
Anyways, how many people out there actually had to demonstrate a complete turns around a point maneuver on their CFI checkride? I doubt many...
poser765
Well-Known Member
Demonstrate means you do the turn around a point AND explain means you teach it...while you are doing it. Other wise that sentence could be translated as "the applicant must teach turns around a point while simultaneously teaching turns around a point. THat doesn't make any sense.
Turns around a point takes two minutes. I routinely have my CFI students teach AND fly completely what is in the CFI PTS in about two hours. Keep in mind not all the maneuvers in the PTS are going to be done on a check ride. And yes I did a complete turn around a point on my ride.
TwilightFan91
New Member
My checkride was as follows:
1. I do regular take off and then depart pattern
2. I demonstrate slow flight
3. examiner does slow flight and then I critique him
4. I demonstrate and explain chandelle
5. examiner purposfully messes up chandelle and I say what he did wrong
6. examiner does perfect lazy-8 and I say to him "wow that was perfect"
7. we go back to the airport to do some landings
8. on the way we did half a TAP.
9. pattern is full so examiner says to me "this will be a full stop".
10. I explain it to him in the pattern how to do a softfield landing while simultaneously manning the radios and watching for traffic
11. examiner does softfield landing
12. while taxiing in, I critique his landing while also monitoring his taxiing procedures and answering his purposefully distracting questions
Basically all I actually did was a regular takeoff, a slow flight and a chandelle. No landings. The flight lasted 1.8. Should that earn me a BFR? During the CFI checkride they are testing your ability to act as a CFI, they're not checking your pilot abilities. You already have a commercial certificate, so theres no need for you to demonstrate that stuff all over again.
tjvpa28
Well-Known Member
The only reason a pilot checkride resets the clock for when your FR is due is because you receive a new certificate with a new date of issue. The FR is due no later than 24 calender months from the date of issue on your certificate. It does not "count as a FR" which is why you don't get a FR endorsement for passing a checkride. You simply get a new date of issue on your certificate.
poser765
Well-Known Member
1.8 is pretty brutal. Just looked at mine from so many years ago. 1.1. if memory serves it was a busy 1.1 too. Now to the rest.
Yes they are testing yor ability to act as a CFI, and one of the things you have to do as a CFI is demonstrate the required maneuvers. I've had a student bust a CFI ride because he straight up fubared a Lazy-8. If he can't do a lazy-8 on the checkride, then how does the faa know he can teach it? If you weren't being tested on your piloting skills then why even have a flight portion of the practical?
tgrayson
New Member
The only reason that a pilot checkride resets the clock is that 61.56(d) says it does. The regulation provides no logic to justify its existence.
R
Roger, Roger
Guest
I love when people argue "well it SHOULD reset the clock because of this and this and this..."
That just doesn't work. The regs don't change themselves just because you think they should.
That just doesn't work. The regs don't change themselves just because you think they should.
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
I really don't think that's the correct analysis. You can go 20 years without a flight review and still exercise all of the privileges of your pilot certificate except act as pilot in command.
And its not just checkrides for new pilot certificates; there are other things that don't result in a new certificate but satisfy the flight review requirement.
Also, if I lose my certificate, I can get a new one, and the date of issue will be the date the replacement was issued. That doesn't extend the date either. The issue date on my commercial pilot certificate is based on the date that the issued me the plastic instead of paper - it didn't extend my 24 months by a single second.
With so many people not really understanding the 24 month "look back" nature of a flight review, I think your way of trying to look at it may be more confusing than helpful.
The straightforward reason - that the clock is reset by a pilot activity not an instructor activity - is, I think, as simple as it gets. Whether people want to accept it or not is a different story.