100 hour inspection 10+ rule

averettpilot

averettpilot

Well-Known Member
I have a question regarding this over 10 hours to get to place where inspection may be done. Here is the hypothetical situation. Let's say you fly an aircraft for a jump operation in Arizona and you've flown it right up to the 100 hr. inspection due time. Your boss now needs it ferried to Michigan for the summer where it will be used again for jump operations. The ferry will put about 15 hrs. on the tach time. Is this legal? Do you need a ferry permit? Thoughts?

Also, as a side question, when does an aircraft start and stop being used for hire? The reason is I was told that the ferry flight since it does not carry passenger is not for hire and then not subject to any 100 hr requirements. Could the ferry flight be viewed as a relocation flight in use of a business?

I know this is a lot of question, but any thoughts would be most helpful from pilots and A&P's alike. Thanks in advance.
 
The repositioning flight might be considered as a part 91, but still for hire.

I'd just have the 100hr performed before the ferry flight. The would be the best way to CYA.
 
I honestly don't think the ferry flight is covered by the "for hire" clause. With that said it makes sense for the owner to ferry the plane first and then get a fresh 100hr once the plane is relocated.
 
The purpose of the repositioning is to continue working the aircraft, which would require a 100hr anyway. I could be wrong, but to me it seems that in this case, whether the airplane is being ferried or not, it's flying for compensation or hire. In other words: It's flying at location A, which requires 100hr inspections. Ferry to location B. Then it will be flying at location B, which will require 100hr inspections. Why would the ferry time be exempt, since the purpose of the ferry is to continue "for hire" operations?
 
My thoughts exactly CFI A&P. Why even bother with the 10 hr exception if you can just say that the ferry flight wasn't for hire so that time doesn't count.

With that being said, the regulation says that an aircraft operated for compensation or hire must "within" the previous 100 hrs of service have had a 100 hr. inspection (not an exact quote). So reading that, you could fly it up to hour 100, ferry it (regardless of how long it takes), then get the 100 hour inspection, then fly with jumpers. Why even bother with a 10 hr exception? This seems like a loop hole or I'm just legally challenged.
 
I'll ask again: Who is hiring the airplane? Not the pilot flying it, he's just moving it from point a to point b. Not the company, they're not making revenue off of it. One would, of course, need to consult the FAA's official definition of "for hire" which I cannot find off the top of my head (paging tgrayson...tgrayson to the MX hangar)
 
Is the rule "legal to start, legal to finish"? If an airplane is at 99.5 of the 100-hr, can I go fly a 1 hr flight with a student and be legal?
 
Roger said:
I'll ask again: Who is hiring the airplane? Not the pilot flying it, he's just moving it from point a to point b. Not the company, they're not making revenue off of it. One would, of course, need to consult the FAA's official definition of "for hire" which I cannot find off the top of my head (paging tgrayson...tgrayson to the MX hangar)
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Nobody is hiring the airplane for the ferry flight. However, there are a few instances in which the aircraft is flown to a nearby destination for routine maintenance. This time is not technically for hire, however, I have to compute it into the 100 hr time frame. So again I ask, when can you say you are operating the aircraft for hire and when are you not. Is it only when there are paying passengers on board? I'll go even further into this technicality. I fly jumpers. They don't land with me if I can help it. Thus, the descent and landing are without passengers. Now you can say they paid for the total operation of that evolution, yet they didn't benefit from half of it. On that same token, the ferry flight does cost the company money. At the end of the year they look at the total cost to operate that aircraft (mx, fuel, etc.) and then look at the hours flown. Cost to operate/hours flown = hourly cost for the next year. I'm not a business man but I would think this is how hourly cost is calculated (feel free to correct me). Therefore, every future passenger is paying for that ferry flight, or the cost to operate it. It continues this way until the aircraft is no longer used to make money. I don't know if any of that made sense or had any merit to it, but there you go....
 
N519AT said:
Is the rule "legal to start, legal to finish"? If an airplane is at 99.5 of the 100-hr, can I go fly a 1 hr flight with a student and be legal?
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No.

If the inspection is required then the doing the 100hr after the flight doesn't get you an extra 10 hours, you have to do the math from when the inspection was due.

Also, if there are any AD's those need to be signed off, there's no leeway on AD's unless it specifically says so in the AD.
 
averettpilot said:
Nobody is hiring the airplane for the ferry flight. However, there are a few instances in which the aircraft is flown to a nearby destination for routine maintenance. This time is not technically for hire, however, I have to compute it into the 100 hr time frame.
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Why? why not fly it right up to the 100 hour and then hop over to the mx base not-for-hire?
 
N519AT said:
Is the rule "legal to start, legal to finish"? If an airplane is at 99.5 of the 100-hr, can I go fly a 1 hr flight with a student and be legal?
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91.409 (2) (b) ...and no person may give flight instruction for hire in an aircraft which that person provides, unless within the preceding 100 hours of time in service the aircraft has received an annual or 100-hour inspection...

The moment you fly past the 100 hr while giving flight instruction you are illegal. The 10 hr rule does not apply to flight instruction, but to flying the aircraft to a place where the inspection can be performed.
 
Roger said:
Why? why not fly it right up to the 100 hour and then hop over to the mx base not-for-hire?
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Again, if it is that easy then why even put in a 10 hour exception. The scenario however, is flying up to the 100 hour then flying it to the next location of business (15 hour flight). I'm with you. Fly it to the 100 hr then have the inspection done, then relocate it. But I always leave travel time (as I have to fly about 60 miles to get the 100 hr. done). Meaning we only have 99 hrs of money making time, the other hour is used to get there. I was under the impression that if you don't have enough time left and will over run getting there you have to have a special flight permit, although I may be way off on that. This was taught to me way back when I started 8 years ago "when it didn't matter 'cause I'll never have to deal with that."
 
Just looked through Part 119 and Ferry flights are excluded so you're not for hire.

Also:

91.409 (2) (b) ...and no person may give flight instruction for hire in an aircraft which that person provides
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100hrs are not required unless you, the flight instructor, own the airplane.
 
trafficinsight said:
100hrs are not required unless you, the flight instructor, own the airplane.
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Some people would say that if the flight instructor is an employee of the flight school, they should be doing 100hrs as well. But, I've never seen any firm ruling on this one. Somebody could write FAA legal, but that may end up in a gigantic backfire.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Some people would say that if the flight instructor is an employee of the flight school, they should be doing 100hrs as well. But, I've never seen any firm ruling on this one. Somebody could write FAA legal, but that may end up in a gigantic backfire.
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If the student rents the airplane from the school under their name and pays the school and hires the instructor then the student is providing the airplane.

If, under the above situation the airplane is owned by the flight instructor, in my opinion, the instructor is providing the airplane.

Where it gets muddy in my mind is if the student signs up at a school that uses the fleet concept and the school assigns an instructor and then flight training takes place in whatever airplane is available... then who is providing the airplane? I think that's where the employee thing comes into play. I think you can be an employee of a flight school and still not "provide the airplane."
 
trafficinsight said:
If the student rents the airplane from the school under their name and pays the school and hires the instructor then the student is providing the airplane.

If, under the above situation the airplane is owned by the flight instructor, in my opinion, the instructor is providing the airplane.

Where it gets muddy in my mind is if the student signs up at a school that uses the fleet concept and the school assigns an instructor and then flight training takes place in whatever airplane is available... then who is providing the airplane? I think that's where the employee thing comes into play. I think you can be an employee of a flight school and still not "provide the airplane."
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That may be true, but I've yet to see a trainer that didn't need to see a mechanic every 100 hours ;)
 
trafficinsight said:
Where it gets muddy in my mind is if the student signs up at a school that uses the fleet concept and the school assigns an instructor and then flight training takes place in whatever airplane is available... then who is providing the airplane? I think that's where the employee thing comes into play. I think you can be an employee of a flight school and still not "provide the airplane."
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Exactly, but I wouldn't want to be the one, or be working at the flight school that challenges the way the FAA looks at things. Could end up messy for a lot of people. Better safe than sorry with the 100 hour inspections. Plus, today, quite a few planes have 100 hour AD's, so they have to be done regardless.
 
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