joethepilot
Well-Known Member
He's a UNDer ... thats a rule they have in their manuals up at GFK. One of the many UND specific rules students routinely confuse for FARs.
Landing on a Closed Runway
- Thread starter Bernoulli Fan
- Start date
He's a UNDer ... thats a rule they have in their manuals up at GFK. One of the many UND specific rules students routinely confuse for FARs.
USMCmech
Well-Known Member
That's not unique to UND. I've heard all sorts of silly rules taught as though they were FARs. One CFI at a school I worked at told a student with a straight face that it was against the law to fly while wearing flip flops.
Back to the origional subject.
Yes you CAN land on a closed runway, even at controlled fields. Tower will not take responsiblity for it and you will be "at your own risk", but you wouldn't be breaking any FARs.
Bernoulli Fan
Controller
Finally, the answer I wanted!
So, clestudentpilot vs. USMCmech...fight!
USMCmech, have you actually done this?
USMCmech
Well-Known Member
I soloed from a taxiway since the runway was being repaved.
Helos land on taxiways all the time
I almost had to land on a taxiway in Abiline TX. The winds were 35 G45 directly across the runway. I was seriously going to ask to land on the E-W taxiway (aprox 3000x50), but the winds shifted by the time I got to the field.
Yes, I would have been in big trouble with the FAA and my boss if anything had happened, but at the time I considered it the least risky choice.
jeflies
Well-Known Member
Now that sounds like some fun!
FriendlySkies
Well-Known Member
No, not from UND. Couldn't find the 1/3 rule but 3 companies I've worked for ask this question on check rides and enforce it in our ops.
gomntwins
Well-Known Member
I pilot I know got violated for this a couple years ago (I believe it was 2 winters ago). He landed 'at your own risk' on a runway that was closed due to lack of snow removal at a controlled field. He's an older gentleman who does fly professionally, but at his age he looked at it as a 30 day vacation, so never fought it. I thought he should have at least fought it, but he didn't seem to care all that much. The controllers could have cared less but the Fed that was in the FBO at the time was not happy. So, I do know you can get violated for it (possibly wrongfully... but still violated), and you may, depending on which Fed sees you, end up in a less than ideal situation.
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
Depending on the fed, that could be considered "careless and reckless."
Your opspecs may have something about too much snow.
We have limitations in ours for wet and dry snow with how much we can takeoff and land in.
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
You might be thinking about 91.175c1 which says:
...
(1) The aircraft is continuously in a position from which a descent to a landing on the intended runway can be made at a normal rate of descent using normal maneuvers, and for operations conducted under part 121 or part 135 unless that descent rate will allow touchdown to occur within the touchdown zone of the runway of intended landing;
Finding a definition of touchdown zone is a little more challenging, that said, I think it could be fair to conclude that the touchdown zone is the first 1/3 of the runway if the runway is long enough. For the record, touchdown zone markings only go to the first 3000' or half of the runway, whichever is less, so if your runway is 9000' long then that'd be correct.
SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
Pilot/Controller Glossary:
TOUCHDOWN ZONE- The first 3,000 feet of the runway beginning at the threshold.
TOUCHDOWN ZONE- The first 3,000 feet of the runway beginning at the threshold.
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
FriendlySkies
Well-Known Member
I'm glad there are other pilots on here to help out, thanks guys. As mntwins said, people can get violated for anything, even the smallest reasons. If you do not have an emergency, don't give the feds a chance to take a second look at you. Even being a private pilot, you've put too much money and time into flying to throw it all away. Be safe and smart and have a long career in aviation.
Everything else aside, this part is absolutely 100% incorrect.
If a pilot requests to land/depart a closed runway you are to inform the pilot the runway is closed. If the pilot insists upon landing/departing, you are to quote the applicable NOTAM closing the runway and inform the pilot that a clearance cannot be issued. If the pilot still insists on landing/departing you are to state "Runway XX Closed. Departure/Landing WILL BE AT YOUR OWN RISK."
FAAO 7110.65 3-3-2.
The three parts of the operation: Stating the runway is closed, stating you cannot issue a clearance, and stating the operation is "at your own risk" are absoultely critical in regards to legal liability for the controller and those three things have BEST be out of your mouth before any part of the airplane touches the runway...and it NEEDS to be on the tapes.
I've done it many times. Sometimes it's come out as a long string of "runwayxxclosedclearancecannotbeissuedlandingwillbeatyourownrisk."
In 15 years of ATC I have never had a pilot land on a closed runway (intentionally) just for the hell of it. Something is WRONG and they need to land. If the pilot deems the operation safe, more power to him/her - I am NOT going to tell a pilot they CANNOT land somewhere - EVER. And I assure you, if you do not state those three things you (the controller) will be held 100% liable for any damage to property or person - regardless of the pilot's actions or decision making process.
Anyone remember how this one turned out recently? You are only allowed to land on the TDZ markers damnit!
gne in prog
Well-Known Member
Now that is cool................
drunkenbeagle
Gang Member
There are plenty of legitimate reasons to land somewhere other than a runway. When gliders land it, it used to be fairly common to land the towplane there to retrieve them if the field was suitable. (At my club, we're only doing this at airports now, not for any legal reason though).
How many airplanes will be landing on a runway at Sun n Fun this week? None, GA aircraft are landing on a taxiway. More than 3000' down runway 9 (now 9 left), actually... And the LSAs are operating off of turf (not a runway either)
This question gives me a sick feeling. Runways are typically closed for good reason. There may be equipment, personnel, trenches, objects in the safety areas, and other nasty things that you won't always see until it's too late. Whatever the reason is, it's just not worth the risk.
Check out Singapore Airlines Flight 006
Check out Singapore Airlines Flight 006
blackberrypilot
Well-Known Member
Ditto. Runways are always closed for a good reason.
Guy
Well-Known Member
I suspect the origin of his statement came from Chapter 8 of the Airplane Flying Handbook under Final Approach or under Floating During Roundout. Or it may have come from the note contained in the ATP PTS Section 2 AOA VI. I am sure he meant it as a rule of thumb or a standard of guidance.