WSJ Article on PSA at CRW

Re: Retarded Pilots

granlistillo said:
...PSA took away our Flight manuals, FOMs and POHs hard copies....
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I hope you mean that was as a result of furlough. Air Carriers are required to make available to all crew members pertinent sections of the approved company manual.

I had to turn in my crap when furloughed, but if you're not on furlough, you should always have available to you a company manual. It doesn't have to be a hard copy, it can be electronic, but it has to be available.

-mini
 
Re: Retarded Pilots

minitour said:
I hope you mean that was as a result of furlough. Air Carriers are required to make available to all crew members pertinent sections of the approved company manual.

I had to turn in my crap when furloughed, but if you're not on furlough, you should always have available to you a company manual. It doesn't have to be a hard copy, it can be electronic, but it has to be available.

-mini
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Nope not on furlough and there are copies on the plane and we get them electronic copy. No rules broken. My point is that systems manual you only see at initial and retraining unless you were the initial cadre. It is a cost savings thing, and I wished I knew more about the plane but you gotta go hunting CTAB is a guru, and his "understanding" holds weight with me.
 
For those of you saying yes or no to them talking while taxiing...at 16:08:44 the captain calls for taxi checks. They continue their conversation about cars, barns, etc. until at 16:12:05 when the tower clears them for takeoff. Unless you know of another way to get from the ramp to the runway in 4 minutes with the brakes set, I would say it appears pretty damning on the sterile cockpit rule.

I know, along with everybody else on here and elsewhere that have a clue about aviation, that this is not the original distraction that caused the wrong flap setting. However, the public's pilot witch-hunt, and by default, the FAA, has been drooling over the sterile cockpit rules for a while.

Everybody needs to be aware of the recorder in the cockpit and act accordingly. I hope they don't get totally fried over this, but it was not good for aviation. Professionalism in the cockpit...it's not just a saying!
 
Stone Cold said:
Everybody needs to be aware of the recorder in the cockpit and act accordingly.
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Eh...what's the saying about doing the right thing when nobody's looking?

I think that should apply in our industry. CVR or not, you know what you should and shouldn't be doing. For those of us that operate sans CVR, I think that's important to remember.

As for this incident, I'll wait to see if they were rolling while BSing or not before I start passing judgment.

At the very worst, the FAA's going to slap them with Careless and Reckless, I'd assume. I'm not entirely sure it isn't warranted...but I'll wait to see what really happened before I decide for sure.

-mini
 
minitour said:
Eh...what's the saying about doing the right thing when nobody's looking?

I think that should apply in our industry. CVR or not, you know what you should and shouldn't be doing. For those of us that operate sans CVR, I think that's important to remember.

As for this incident, I'll wait to see if they were rolling while BSing or not before I start passing judgment.

At the very worst, the FAA's going to slap them with Careless and Reckless, I'd assume. I'm not entirely sure it isn't warranted...but I'll wait to see what really happened before I decide for sure.

-mini
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Being an outsider here (non 121) I know I don't have all the info, as an outsider I see personal talk, CA asking for flaps 20, ground calls, then FO sets flaps 8 CA never catches it, and small talk continues and does NOT stop until 20 seconds before take off clearance was received, and 1 min 6 seconds before take off power started coming up.

Doesn't look good for them. CVR's can haunt you...wasn't it Delta 1141 that has the CA/Fo and FA on tape joking about recording the dating habits of our FA's,...then he said we need something for our wives and children to listen too(after the crash). that crash was due to the flaps not being set correctly too I believe.
 
Stone Cold said:
For those of you saying yes or no to them talking while taxiing...at 16:08:44 the captain calls for taxi checks. They continue their conversation about cars, barns, etc. until at 16:12:05 when the tower clears them for takeoff. Unless you know of another way to get from the ramp to the runway in 4 minutes with the brakes set, I would say it appears pretty damning on the sterile cockpit rule.

I know, along with everybody else on here and elsewhere that have a clue about aviation, that this is not the original distraction that caused the wrong flap setting. However, the public's pilot witch-hunt, and by default, the FAA, has been drooling over the sterile cockpit rules for a while.

Everybody needs to be aware of the recorder in the cockpit and act accordingly. I hope they don't get totally fried over this, but it was not good for aviation. Professionalism in the cockpit...it's not just a saying!
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Without rereading the transcript, it is entirely possible they are sitting short of the hold short line with one engine shutdown, start the engine and call for taxis checklist. That is done all the time. Usually at a hub we do it when you are number 3 of 4. The taxi checklist is not a pretaxi checklist. That would be the after start.
 
granlistillo said:
Without rereading the transcript, it is entirely possible they are sitting short of the hold short line with one engine shutdown, start the engine and call for taxis checklist. That is done all the time. Usually at a hub we do it when you are number 3 of 4. The taxi checklist is not a pretaxi checklist. That would be the after start.
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16:02:35 they are asking if ground wants them to stay on the ramp. Ground says yes, wait there. They talk a little bit, and at 16:07:32 ground clears them to taxi via B and A. 16:08:15 sound of engine start in the middle of the conversation about having a washing pit for cars in their barn. Then, like I said previously, at 16:08:44 Capt. calls for taxis.

Listen, I understand they are friends of yours. I am not Monday Morning QB'ing. I am pointing out what little information we have on this incident. If, somehow, what I am reading and understanding is wrong, I will fully apologize.

As was previously said, what do you want left on the CVR for everybody to dissect? I think, at this time, according to all I have seen on this accident, the crew became complacent. It can happen to any of us. We must maintain vigil and do the job we are paid to do, to the best of our abilities.
 
I hear what your saying. Starting an engine with the brakes on is possible too. I am too bummed out to really time it out. Based on what we know it is a series of errors. Your point about complacency, is right on. If it can happen to these to guys it can happen to anyone. If I would have to make a list of guys this would happen to, this 5 digit houred check airman would be at the end of the list. I say that cause he trained me. I ain't trying to cover for them. But these flippant comments, would they be tolerated if DT, Calcapt, or MikeD had a runoff. Did this type of stuff go on about the Continental crash in Denver?? NO
 
granlistillo said:
I hear what your saying. Starting an engine with the brakes on is possible too.
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I am not doubting one bit that they can start an engine with the brake on. However, from the time taxi was approved (from the ramp where they were held) by ground to takeoff clearance was 4 minutes 32 seconds. That is my only point.
I am too bummed out to really time it out. Based on what we know it is a serious of errors. Your point about complacency, is right on. If it can happen to these to guys it can happen to anyone. If I would have to make a list of guys this would happen to, this 5 digit houred check airman would be at the end of the list. I say that cause he trained me. I ain't trying to cover for them. But these flippant comments, would they be tolerated if DT, Calcapt, or MikeD had a runoff. Did this type of stuff go on about the Continental crash in Denver?? NO
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I am not trying to cast blame or cover. I am trying to make sure people, even if you like the captain, look at the facts as presented, and learn from any mistakes. There has never been a perfect flight. I believe even the "Miracle on the Hudson" flight had people pointing to the CVR's: as they were climbing out, they broke sterile cockpit also, IIRC. For some reason, it is sticking in my mind that one of them commented on how nice of a day it was or something, but that was it.

I do not know the details on the Denver incident, and have not seen the CVR transcripts of it. I have not read all comments in this thread, but I will say it could have been any one of us, and had this been us, we would have people reading the CVR's and making comments on it also.

Edit to add: I think some of the comments are due to the length of the conversation, and what appears to be brutal complacency. If they had just....
 
Excellent post stonecold. Yeah it is pretty bad for them. I've had chatty cathy guys I wish would not talk so much. Myself I try to follow it sterile cockpit perhaps with a "wow look at that pretty GIV there" violation, because I know I am very capable of mistakes. I
BTW IMHO there is a lot of hypocrisy on the sterile cockpit rule, and we saw a captain Renslow being wildly villified for stuff that a lot of people have done, and do all the time.
 
Folks,

Let's just check this bickering and stay on topic before this thread, which has the to potential to lead to some calm, rational discussions about procedures and CRM, gets locked.

Take it down a few notches or continue this in PM land.

Thanks.
 
deadstick said:
Folks,

Let's just check this bickering and stay on topic before this thread, which has the to potential to lead to some calm, rational discussions about procedures and CRM, gets locked.

Take it down a few notches or continue this in PM land.

Thanks.
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Uhhh, ok???!?!:bandit::beer:
 
Thing of note...

It is VERY normal to get a CONFIG SPOILERS message during a reject. I'm thinking it has to do with the fact that the config system is based on fan speed and the ground lift dumping system (which controls the spoilers during a reject or normal landing) is based on thrust lever position. Either way, it happens normally whenever you set the takeoff bit and then pull the power back.

The sim, for what ever reason, doesn't duplicate that during a reject.
 
ctab5060X said:
It is surprising how many CRJ pilots don't realize this...
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I'd guess it is because the sim doesn't replicate it and thankfully, rejects are relatively rare.

Knowing your airplane and what it will do in various situations is a VERY useful skill set to have.
 
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