Pilots Engaged in Small Talk Before Botched Jet Takeoff

[jtrain609]

While true, what reaction should be trained for this situation where you would notice it going through 80 knots? I but for the grace of stubbing my toe and crying out would hope to abort.

No doubt, and I also hope I'd do the same thing. But at the same time, I can see being in a state of mind where normally I wouldn't do something this stupid (and how many of us really WOULD do something this stupid on a regular basis).

And I guess that's the thing, if this guy was really such a horrible, horrible pilot, then by the time he hit that point in his career (almost 7,000 hours?) he would have done something to bend some metal.

Or said another way, I'd imagine this is an aberration on an otherwise normal career.

 

[Divine Wind]

I guess that's the thing, if this guy was really such a horrible, horrible pilot, then by the time he hit that point in his career (almost 7,000 hours?) he would have done something to bend some metal.

Or said another way, I'd imagine this is an aberration on an otherwise normal career.

Agreed. Our career field is one of the few where every day must go close to perfect or we will no longer have a career. It doesn't take a smoking hole or even going four-wheeling into the EMAS bed to end a career.

The modern U.S. airline industry is so well regulated and so well monitored that fatalities and even injuries are extremely rare. An airline pilot is highly unlikely to die in an airline accident. IIRC, one stat said a Part 121 airline pilot would have to fly 4 legs a day for 1000 years to hit the odds of dying on the job. Much more likely is an incompetent or inattentive pilot would be violated. Get violated too often or too harshly and they'll be in a never position to be killed flying as an airline pilot.

The mere fact we're talking about an incident where no one was injured and virtually no damage was done to the aircraft is a case in point.

 

[ctab5060X]

I think CAL's is even simpler. Their flaps and flight controls are checked before the a/c even moves. Seems like a good time.

At Pinnacle, we set the flaps and check the flight controls before we ever move under our own power. I really think that is the best time to do it. Don't have to worry about anything else other than just that portion of the checklist.

 

[granlistillo]

I'm not sure how many CRJ operators have similar procedures but at PSA the flaps are part of the taxi check which is done (normally) while taxiing. Throw in a random radio call causing a distraction and you get this.

My thoughts exactly and the most salient point I saw from the cvr. At the same second he went to flaps 8 detent, he got a call from ground. We don't just pull it from 0 to 20. He was distracted initially by a call from ground. As far as the chit chat, I would want to know more about where they were and was the brake set. They missed the cross check on the ACARS speeds and performance data, but who knows how I would react in his position with all those alarms on that runway, at the end of the day nobody died and the plane will fly again. Had it been at CLT, I am pretty sure this wouldn't happened.

To those of you slamming the Captain, the guy was my first IOE captain and he is a very professional pilot. Obviously this can not be good, but I remind you, we can all make mistakes and just hope we don't.

 

[granlistillo]

Yes there is a large difference in performance between 8 and 20. And to clear it up there would be no takeoff config warning with EITHER flaps 8 or 20... but when the flaps are in transit (apparently) you would get the takeoff warning.
The -200 eats up significantly more runway at flaps 8 than 20 and CRW is one of 'those' airports where there's not much wiggle room.

I agree completely. Since the v1 per psa callouts is at 5 kts prior and the V1 was set for flaps 20 performance data it would seem at that point, all past mistakes OBE, V1 would be coming very quickly so at the point he moved the flaps, and got the misconfig warning he was past v1. So he could have firewalled the thrust levers out of the flex carats and tried to pull her off the ground. or abort. We all know we don't abort above V1 but the spoilers warning is what i don't get. If you thought the boards were out would you try to go flying off a cliff or shut it down? I don't know what I would do. CTAB, Ethan any other much more experienced CRJ guys know why there was a spoiler warning??? The only thing I have ever read that an abort is warranted above v1 is if there is a doubt the aircraft can fly. having boards out, would be enough for me if my gut said stop...

 

[mxflyer]

My thoughts exactly and the most salient point I saw from the cvr. At the same second he went to flaps 8 detent, he got a call from ground. We don't just pull it from 0 to 20.

My IOE captain taught me to make it a point to keep my hand on the lever until the right setting displayed, before checking the flight controls.

They missed the cross check on the ACARS speeds and performance data,

I'm not sure if this is known, but were the speeds set for a flaps 8 or a flaps 20 departure?

 

[granlistillo]

I'm not sure if this is known, but were the speeds set for a flaps 8 or a flaps 20 departure?

99% sure flaps 20. That's why the captain moved the lever to 20 on the roll and he called for flaps 20 taxis... He was probably looking right at the ACARS numbers as the FO read off flap 20 numbers from the pfd.

 

[mxflyer]

99% sure flaps 20. That's why the captain moved the lever to 20 on the roll and he called for flaps 20 taxis... He was probably looking right at the ACARS numbers as the FO read off flap 20 numbers from the pfd.

That's right. I forgot he had called for flaps 20. I was just curious is all.

 

[Bignellyxx]

I haven't read all of this thread to find out if it has been mentioned but...I find it funny how worried the NTSB, FAA & Congress are about regional airlines, but nobody has came out with an idea to eliminate outsourced flying...I mean that would eliminate my job but I think it would benefit everyone. No more Regionals and it would eliminate any thought of foreign airlines at home...but all of these legislatators as much as they like to trash regionals support them because of the Big Business! Just putting up a bill to please their constituents although it will never pass and they can use it to get voted in again. This system sucks but it is the greatest….Right???

 

[Divine Wind]

I haven't read all of this thread to find out if it has been mentioned but...I find it funny how worried the NTSB, FAA & Congress are about regional airlines, but nobody has came out with an idea to eliminate outsourced flying...I mean that would eliminate my job but I think it would benefit everyone.

Ain't gonna happen. The cities which lose air service would go bananas. The rise in ticket prices would be a combination of screams of protests and massive loss of customers who rediscover the pleasures of car, bus and train travel. The GOP would be all over the DNC for restricting capitalism. Anyone who suggests eliminating a source of business would be labeled a socialist and supporter of Big Brother government.

No more Regionals and it would eliminate any thought of foreign airlines at home...

Huh? Are you saying that eliminating outsourcing would eliminate the threat of cabotage? I strongly disagree. I think it would increase the chances of it passing.

 

[Bignellyxx]

Ain't gonna happen. The cities which lose air service would go bananas. The rise in ticket prices would be a combination of screams of protests and massive loss of customers who rediscover the pleasures of car, bus and train travel. The GOP would be all over the DNC for restricting capitalism. Anyone who suggests eliminating a source of business would be labeled a socialist and supporter of Big Brother government.

Huh? Are you saying that eliminating outsourcing would eliminate the threat of cabotage? I strongly disagree. I think it would increase the chances of it passing.

To put it better...I would like to see all flying done by mainline. Just like everyone else. That seems like and easy solution but it would cost too much.

I was a few drinks down when i got pissed and posted. Logic was fuzzy. Your point makes more sense

 

[kellwolf]

With me as an FO having to worry about doing a ton of work during the taxi is just going to lead to more incursions and more wrong turns because I'm not really paying attention and there's no one there to back up the CA.

This is why I taxi slow with some FOs. I taxi REALLY slow when you're in the right seat.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

My IOE captain taught me to make it a point to keep my hand on the lever until the right setting displayed, before checking the flight controls.

That's a damn good idea. I'm gonna start doing that.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

http://www.himsprogram.com/HIMS_about.html

It is an excellent program. I have flown with some people that have completed it, and they are exceptional and professional aviators. They are also very grateful to have the opportunity to be back in the cockpit.

Yup, I went to a public speaking event by one of the NW guys who was arrested for flying drunk in the 80s or early 90s. He said that any time he needs a doctor, dentist, lawyer, etc he will choose one who is a recovered alcoholic or drug addict because he knows the dedication it takes to get through that. Sounds like sound judgment to me.

 

[FLflyer]

I got seriously screwed by being heads-down once and it creeps me out a little (especially in ORD) unless the captain is on top of it and talks out their taxi route.

Ah, like taxiing out of the South Ramp to 32L at T10....on one engine, then getting takeoff clearance....

 

[granlistillo]

I haven't read all of this thread to find out if it has been mentioned but...I find it funny how worried the NTSB, FAA & Congress are about regional airlines, but nobody has came out with an idea to eliminate outsourced flying...I mean that would eliminate my job but I think it would benefit everyone. No more Regionals and it would eliminate any thought of foreign airlines at home...but all of these legislatators as much as they like to trash regionals support them because of the Big Business! Just putting up a bill to please their constituents although it will never pass and they can use it to get voted in again. This system sucks but it is the greatest….Right???

For the record, this is a wholly owned airline of US Airways, and we got jets as part of a deal to have the pleasure of having flowbacks AKA jet for jobs guys, and then poof where did our flow through plan go. So I don't follow a lot of your logic, but as far as outsourced? We fly whatever our company tells us to fly.